Should traffic stops be abandoned ?

[gunsmith]

flogging?

I am sure I would flee at high speed rather then submit to a flogging.
personally, I am a non drinker or rather an "ex drinker" all
the laws in the world didn't stop me and I was never caught driving
well over the limit because I allways obeyed every single law when I was
a drunk.
now that I'm sober and can just get a ticket like a regular citizen
I am a lot less carefull.

most speed limits are just plain dumb and only serve to increase the revenue of the state.

for instance here in NV it used to be (on certain highways)
you could go as fast as you wanted to, you're in the desert, you can see for miles and there are no other vehicles so whats the point of speed limits there?

but some crummy politician needed a few more bucks in the coffers.

and if cops are a visible detererent then why do they hide?.

most traffic laws are just a racket, as are drug laws , gun laws, prostituion laws I could go on and on but I have to go to my driving job ...

 

[Low-Sci]

Remarkable...

This, I must admit, makes almost no sense to me.

Obeying the rules for carrying weapons makes sense, yet when we are controlling the path of a 3,000 lb machine, they don't matter? What's the principle difference between a vehicle going 75 with an idiot behind the wheel who has no regard for other people's safety and a bullet fired from a weapon by an idiot with no regard for other people's safety?

I don't care at all if you personally think you can drive safely ten or twenty over. Can everyone else around you do it too? Wanna bet your life on it?

There are lots of people on the road. Not all of them are smart. Get cut off twice and you'll realize that in a big hurry.

Why is it hard to understand that rules are in place for safety in both of these situations?

No, Im not calling gun owners idiots, I know Im the new guy, and I'll get flamed like nobody's business. I'm just boggled by the inconsistency of the situation.

 

[Bart Skelton]

A very impressive gaggle of comments on this subject. Many good points made. Regardless whether you are pro or con traffic stop, I believe they're here to stay, particularly in rural areas. As for departments using traffic stops as a revenue multiplier, I tend to agree with those who find it irritating. However, larger departments with professional officers whose job it is to patrol the highways deserve much more respect for their efforts.

My own law enforcement career began with the New Mexico State Police, and I've missed them every day since that I left them for the feds. I've performed my share of traffic stops and I have first hand knowledge that the motoring public often finds an officer, whether he is polite or not, offensive. The mere presence of a patrol officer on the highway, whether or not he is stopping cars, is a deterrence. If he's working traffic and conducting stops, even more effective. In my opinion, discontinuing traffic stops would cause the highway death rates to skyrocket.

While working the road, I never set a goal to write a particular number of citations per day. Out of the 30-40 stops I made a day, I only cited a fourth of the drivers, and that was generally after they had failed the temperament test. Our superiors frequently told us that we served the public and that we weren't there to harass anyone. Most of us took that to heart. To me, traffic stops were a good tool to look into serious crime. The highways I worked were main arteries for drugs heading north from Mexico, and drug money headed back to the traffickers in Mexico. My partners and I knocked off many, many loads of dope and money. Illegal aliens, fugitives and stolen cars were routinely encountered. If not for traffic stops, these thugs would have continued their criminal enterprise unhindered.

While I can appreciate the opposing view, I believe doing away with this important law enforcement tool would be a bad mistake. Dangerous, yes, but so is walking across the street.

 

[S&W 910]

most traffic laws are just a racket, as are drug laws , gun laws, prostituion laws I could go on and on but I have to go to my driving job ...




lol

 

[atek3]

I don't mind the police writing tickets for behavior that is actually unsafe, but tickets for speeding when the road is dry, sun is shining, and no other cars are nearby...that's total revenue generating BS.

Also checkpoint, sobriety checkpoints, roadblocks, whatever you want to call them, are BS. I don't care if you catch osama bin ladin at one, that still doesn't change the fact that stopping people for no reason other than being on the public roads at the wrong place and the wrong time, is total BS.

High speed chases for simple speeding is BS. Get their license plate no. Let them go, then confiscate their car if they can't prove that they weren't the driver. The alternative is having police officers and bystanders die trying to chase down velocity scofflaws.

Red light cameras, speed cameras, BS. Red light cameras have been shown by study after study to increase accidents at intersections (mainly caused by people slamming on their brakes and getting rear ended). Speed cameras, maybe if speed limits were set with some basis in reality, but when a 4 lane divided highway in milpitas has a 35 mph speed limit... gimme a friggin break.

 

[haole_boySS]

Low-Sci

Obeying the rules for carrying weapons makes sense, yet when we are controlling the path of a 3,000 lb machine, they don't matter? What's the principle difference between a vehicle going 75 with an idiot behind the wheel who has no regard for other people's safety and a bullet fired from a weapon by an idiot with no regard for other people's safety?

By that logic, should you be able to apply for a higher class of driving license? IE: the testing and licenseing that Nascar, NHRA, Indy, Sprints, etc have to go thru to certify that they CAN control their vehicle at high speeds?

Speeding tickets are all about revenue, How many people here can say that they got pulled over for under 90 mph on a highway and then afterward said "I really learned my lesson, i'll never speed again"

No one right? I wouldn't say that. I would just be more careful next time. For the most part, if you are on the highway, or an interstate system and doing the speed limit.....YOU are the dangerous one. You are impeading traffic, making people hit their brakes, change lanes often, etc. We all especially love the guy that goes the limit in the fast lane. They are better than the other million people on the road. There is no reason for us to go faster than them right?

I'm 32 yrs old and i have had Zero accidents and 3 tickets in my 16 yr driving career. All 3 tickets were beat by going to court and pleading "guilty" to the Judge. They give you PBJ, you pay the court costs and the fine and walk with no points on your license. (speeding mind you, not reckless, racing, etc)

They are not trying to slow me down, or get me off the road. They want money for the govt. Same thing with emission stations. anything above 1996 doesnt go on the rollers anymore. I had a 00' Camaro that couldn't be more emission ILLEGAL. I passed everytime. They never questioned the sound of my car or the fact that it was raw fuel that was causing them to cough and gag when my car was running. They plugged into my computer to check for emissions codes. (I had all of them deleted) I passed and left the station wide open throttle. Was that stupid? of course it was. But for the $14 charge, you could have just sent me a notice in the mail that said I could forgo the testing and just send the State a check for $30.

Anyway, speeding tkts are a joke. Its like watching the wildest police videos and having the narrator say "and he was traveling at Break Neck speeds to evade the police" Funny thing being he was doing 90mph.
The crash test dummies have proved that break neck speeds are anything above 35 mph.

Sorry for the rant, its been a long Sunday at work.

JMHO

Andy

 

[Taurus 66]

Also checkpoint, sobriety checkpoints, roadblocks, whatever you want to call them, are BS. I don't care if you catch osama bin ladin at one, that still doesn't change the fact that stopping people for no reason other than being on the public roads at the wrong place and the wrong time, is total BS.

Sign of the times ... and get used to it because it's only getting stronger. It's not ever going away. Forget not the families who were devestated by DUI related traffic accidents. Why would someone advocate driving under the influence of any substance?! Is this one's general thought processes while also CCW??

"Oh yeah man, I know my limit. It 6 or 7 beers before puts the gun away. Oh I'm fine, really, trust me <Buuurrrrp> (stumbling about). I'se drink whoose gahs my ... HAA-bit un'er controoll."

 

[Parker Dean]

This, I must admit, makes almost no sense to me.

Obeying the rules for carrying weapons makes sense, yet when we are controlling the path of a 3,000 lb machine, they don't matter? What's the principle difference between a vehicle going 75 with an idiot behind the wheel who has no regard for other people's safety and a bullet fired from a weapon by an idiot with no regard for other people's safety?

I don't care at all if you personally think you can drive safely ten or twenty over. Can everyone else around you do it too? Wanna bet your life on it?

There are lots of people on the road. Not all of them are smart. Get cut off twice and you'll realize that in a big hurry.

Why is it hard to understand that rules are in place for safety in both of these situations?

No, Im not calling gun owners idiots, I know Im the new guy, and I'll get flamed like nobody's business. I'm just boggled by the inconsistency of the situation.

The inconsistency in reaction to enforcement of firearms rules and traffic rules is the result of the apparent inconsistency of intent in enforcement.

Break the laws regarding firearms and prosecution costs the State money, so they have no vested interest in doing so.

Traffic enforcement, OTOH, is a revenue generator for the State and therefore smacks of conflict of interest. This results in a viewpoint that, no matter the protestations to the contrary, enforcement of traffic laws is nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to get into peoples wallets.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

No one right? I wouldn't say that. I would just be more careful next time. For the most part, if you are on the highway, or an interstate system and doing the speed limit.....YOU are the dangerous one. You are impeading traffic, making people hit their brakes, change lanes often, etc. We all especially love the guy that goes the limit in the fast lane. They are better than the other million people on the road. There is no reason for us to go faster than them right?

You may think you have a reason to go faster than me when I'm already doing the speed limit, but you don't have any right to expect me to get out of your way. What part of "L I M I T" don't you understand? If I am traveling at the speed limit, I am by definition traveling at the fastest speed allowable for that road or highway. By definition, then, nobody has any right to go faster than I am going, or to roar up behind me with their headlights flashing and horn honking and expect me to speed up or pull over so they can indulge in their little ego trip.

I am not making anyone hit their brakes. If everyone drives at the posted limit, traffic flows just fine. It's the people who think they have a God-given right to exceed the limit, pass on the right, weave in and out of traffic, etc, who cause the accidents.

Don't want to have to use your brakes? Don't drive faster than the car in front of you.

 

[atek3]

You may think you have a reason to go faster than me when I'm already doing the speed limit, but you don't have any right to expect me to get out of your way. What part of "L I M I T" don't you understand? If I am traveling at the speed limit, I am by definition traveling at the fastest speed allowable for that road or highway. By definition, then, nobody has any right to go faster than I am going, or to roar up behind me with their headlights flashing and horn honking and expect me to speed up or pull over so they can indulge in their little ego trip.

Was haole_boySS advocating "roar(ing) up behind me with their headlights flashing and horn honking and expect me to speed up or pull over so they can indulge in their little ego trip."?

NO. He was simply saying that there is a time and place to go the speed limit, and the LEFT LANE ISN'T IT. I don't know where you live, but here in the bay area going 55 mph on the 101 or even 65 on the 280 is retarded.

CHP would probably ticket you for doing the speed limit because we have another law making it illegal to obstruct traffic. Go the speed of traffic and you risk a ticket, go the speed limit, you risk a ticket. I'll take my chances at the speed of traffic, thank you very much.

atek3

 

[BAE984]

I'm sure some of you are familiar with the I-285 loop in Atlanta. Here's an interesting video on the 'safety' of doing the speed limit:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5366552067462745475&q="meditation+on+the+speed+limit"

That's an imovie by some Georgia State students.

I detest traffic stops for a few over. I just got busted for 82 in a 65...on I-20. There was nobody else on the road, I had all 4 lanes (on my side) all to myself. Unless you watch the speedometer constantly it's hard not to speed without any references. Apparently it's safer to concentrate on my speedometer than on the road. It's one thing to stop those that weave in and out of rush hour traffic doing 20 over...quite another to stop people for going 80 on an interstate highway with no traffic.

 

[atek3]

BAE984, I'm feeling your pain. I got nailed in milpitas, ca. Fortunately, my friends who are both bikers and cops are helping me beat the ticket.

That googlevideo is a classic.

 

[haole_boySS]

Atek3, thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself. I knew someone would jump to conclusions....but thats what you get on a message board and not being able to convey your reasons face to face. No harm no foul.

You are 100% correct though. My miserable state of MD has the same laws....you can be going the speed limit and think you are legal. But if you are impeading traffic because you are going slowing than the masses you are in fact, Illegal.

Ever heard of majority rules Hawkmoon? lol

 

[Calumus]

"You may think you have a reason to go faster than me when I'm already doing the speed limit, but you don't have any right to expect me to get out of your way."

As long as we're following the letter of the law to a "t" there is one if I recall correctly that says "keep right except to pass" That would help the flow of traffic immensely. Everyday I see people cruising the fast lane at the limit or even 5 under; and every time I see that I also see a steady line of cars having to switch lanes to pass them on the right. After a particularly bad traffic day a couple of weeks ago I caught up to a rolling road-block cruising at 57 or so in the left lane in an area where 85% of the people are cruising safely at 75. Who was it you ask? A driving instructor with a new student. Way to start them off right.:banghead:

 

[Mad Man]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m4021/is_6_25/ai_105777520

Your Questions Answered
American Demographics, July 1, 2003
new

Save a personal copy of this article and quickly find it again with Furl.net. It's free! Save it.

Byline: JOHN FETTO

INTO HEAVY PEDAL?

To the Editors of American Demographics:

Can you uncover any definitive information on the number of speeding tickets issued annually per state? How many motorists own and use a radar detector, and what are these motorists' demographic profiles? Thank you for your kind consideration of this topic, and keep up the great work! Grant Dahlke K40 Electronics Elgin, Ill.

Dear Grant:

Short of personally calling each and every bureau directly, we were unable to locate any data on the number of speeding tickets issued annually per state. But we were able to find information that you might find interesting regarding how many American drivers nationwide are pulled over for speeding and how many of them are ultimately ticketed.

According to a report released last year by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1 in 10 of the nation's 186.3 million licensed drivers (19.3 million individuals) got pulled over by police in 1999 (the latest year for which data is available). Of those who were stopped, 51 percent (5 percent of all licensed drivers, or 9.9 million individuals) admitted their encounter with the law was due to speeding. Not everyone who is pulled over for speeding winds up making a contribution to City Hall's coffers, but a vast majority do. In fact, 69 percent of drivers who were stopped for speeding in 1999 got a ticket. (The survey does not specifically ask why the drivers got a ticket, only the reason they were pulled over.)

See also

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cpp99.pdf

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cpp02.pdf

 

[rbernie]

As much as I dislike a large, intrusive government I dislike chaos more. And since we can't get people to be responsible and accountable, we have to have some rules to persuade people to straighten up and drive right.

I dislike chaos as much as the next suburbanite. I prefer a nice orderly day without undue surprises or threats upon my life or health. But since when did laws make that possible?

People are largely gonna do what they do regardless of the presence or absence of laws to the contrary. IMO, laws don't prevent acts - they simply provide consequence for 'em for the benefit of those in a mood for retribution.

You want order? Make people care about each other more. You want control? Pass laws.

 

[Mad Man]

In 2002 -- the latest year for which data is available -- there were 16,783,500 traffic stops conducted by police.

That same year, 10 officers were killed in "Traffic pursuits/stops." (See table 18 and 19 at http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/02leoka.pdf ). More officers -- 15 -- were killed in "Ambush situations," and another 10 were killed in "Arrest situations."

There were 56 officers feloniously killed in 2002. 10 is 18% of 56.

The chances of an officer being feloniously killed in any given traffic stop or traffic pursuit is 10 / 16,783,500 = 0.000059%

If we include accidents:

12 officers were killed when "Struck by vehicle," and 4 of those were during "Traffic stops, roadblocks, etc." (See table 52).

So an officer has a 4 / 16,783,500 = 0.000024% of being accidently killed during a traffic stop.

14 deaths ( 10 murder + 4 accident) during 16,783,500 traffic stops = 0.000083% chance of being killed during a traffic stop.
.

 

[Bart Skelton]

You want order? Make people care about each other more. You want control? Pass laws


I pretty much agree with the law passing part, but what are your suggestions as to the rest?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Several people have mentioned drunk drivers. Years ago, there was a "crackdown" in Columbus, Georgia. There were letters to the editor accusing the police of parking in the lots of bars and waiting for drunks to come out and start their cars. The police denied it.

Why the hell not?!? What's wrong with catching them at the bar, before they get out into the public streets -- if what you're after is cutting down on drunk drivers?

Virginia has a law against radar detectors. Why? It would make more sense to put out detector activators at danger spots (and move then around a bit) so people with detectors would slow down and cue other drivers to do the same.

There are a lot of things we could do to deter dangerous drving that don't involve stopping and arresting people after the fact.

 

[drinks]

It comes down to ;
There are law abiding, responsible citizens and there are criminal scofflaws.

 

[atek3]

There are law abiding, responsible citizens and there are criminal scofflaws.

The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. - Ayn Rand

I agree with Rand in this case.

atek3

 

[Kodiaz]

How about this if one cop will enforce the law as written against another cop then it stays everything else gets tossed. I have never seen a police cruiser pulled over for speeding or running red lights. I'm sure when a cop pulls over an off duty cop for whatever short of an accident the off duty cop pulls his cop card and off he goes scott free I'm sure this "courtesy" is extended to judges as well.


If you won't give another cop a ticket then don't give me one. Flogging no problem every time the light is on at Krispy Kreme can I be waiting there with the rattan.

 

[Calumus]

"How about this if one cop will enforce the law as written against another cop then it stays everything else gets tossed. I have never seen a police cruiser pulled over for speeding"

Actually can say I saw this happen once. A state trooper pulled over a local cop in my town for blowing through a 35 at 96! I guess the trooper called dispatch when he saw her fly by to see what was going on and the only call they had was for a woman broken down on the side of the road. She lasted about another week on the force before she relocated. Turns out that she was suspended from a dept. in southern Jersey for misconduct when our local crew of geniuses known as the town committee hired her. Best part is they knew about it and hired her anyway. This in a town that's on the verge of losing their liability insurance because their PD's been sued for misconduct so many times and keeps losing anyway cheers,
Shawn

 

[Kodiaz]

Pulled over is not the same as issued a summons.

 

[Gordon Fink]

You know what? We could catch even more criminals and generate even more income if we just instituted mandatory inspection checkpoints. While we’re at it, we could issue travel permits and perhaps allow random, unannounced home inspections. Yeah, pretty soon we would be living in a crime-free utopia.

~G. Fink