Sigs And 1911's

[Crow61]

I went to a gun show Sunday afternoon and fell in love with a Kimber Pro Raptor. ( I think that is the model) It was around 950.00, so I knew that I couldn't afford to get it. But my wonderful wife told me yesterday that I could get it soon if that is what I really wanted.

Now, to my questions.

Why are these guns so expensive yet seem to have issues right out of the box? What is the deal with factory mags not working well with the various 1911's?

After my wife gave me the okay for the Kimber, I have also thought about the Sig Equinox. When I first saw that pistol I really like the way that it looked. But, I also see a lot of accounts online of Sigs having problems. Why aren't some Sigs, 1911's and other expensive guns not reliable out of the box?

Thanks!

 

[Rexster]

My SIG European-style P220 was 100% reliable out of the box. I used it as a duty pistol and for CCW on my own time; it was a 24/7 handgun. I only stopped using it because the Euro-style heel-clip mag release would snag the fabric of the patrol car's seat, which on four occasions caused the mag to partially release. The weapon itself was 100% reliable. Several co-workers also had P220s, and all of theirs were 100% reliable, too. In fact, I started carrying that P220 because of their experiences. I sold my P220 to a co-worker, who gave it to his father as a gift, because it was reliable.

 

[Thernlund]

I've heard this someplace, maybe here or maybe in a magazine, but I can't remember where or who said it. So to paraphrase...

The 1911 was designed by John Browning to go to war. It's a rattle trap and that's why it was reliable. A no non-sense tool. Then the patent expired and people began "improving" on the design by tightening tolerances and making fancy "race guns". This has the side-effect of lessening reliability. That is, you have to baby them more. The design was not meant for such high tolerances and tight fits. What used to be a non-issue in a 1911 can now make it stop running.

I can't say whether that's true, but it seems reasonable.

In my personal experience, I've had guns run crappy out of the box, but then run flawlessly through 1000's of rounds after a thorough first cleaning. Something they pack it in maybe.


-T.

EDIT: I posted about a problem I had with my P220 here. As per the repair slip combined with my independent research on the topic, it was likely due to a bad batch of extractors.

It now runs prefect.

Soooo... bad parts can contribute.

 

[Rexster]

To continue, I eventually got back to a SIG duty pistol, this time a P229 in .40, based on glowing reliability reports from co-workers, plus a better fit in my hand than the P220. (My agency now mandates the .40 for duty pistols, and we buy our own, DA of course, made by S&W, Beretta, SIG, and Glock, and maybe now Springfield.) I have never met a fellow officer who has had a malfunction with his P229, or ever heard a first-hand account of a malfunction. Mine has been 100% reliable, with various assorted ammo types. Where are the unreliable SIGs? Only on the internet, from my perspective. I either know or am acquainted with hundreds of SIG owners, carrying the P220, P226, and P229. I just voted with my wallet, and bought one pre-owned P229, and traded into a new P229, one of which my be a gift for a family member, the other of which will be a spare duty pistol, assuming they are reliable, of course. I have good reason to be optimistic. OTOH, I can certainly tell stories of 1911 pistols that were less than 100% reliable, but to be fair, most 5" 1911 pistols are reliable after a few hundred rounds of break-in ammo, in my experience. The 1911 was a major part of my life from 1983 to 2002. Stay away from Kimber, cheap clones, and "compacts." Or, just buy a SIG P-series DA pistol. Edited to add: Just to be clear, my duty P229 has been reliable over the long term; the ones I just obtained are my second and third P229 pistols.

 

[exar]

Never had one single issue in thousands of rounds and years of use from my Sig P-228 9mm.

 

[DMK]

I only stopped using it because the Euro-style heel-clip mag release would snag the fabric of the patrol car's seat, which on four occasions caused the mag to partially release.

That's ironic since the whole reason for that slower design was to prevent accidental mag release

I've often thought about a Kimber, but man they do seem to get a lot of bad rants about reliability issues. Maybe it's mostly due to the 3" barreled ones, but it sure makes it hard to fork over $1k+ while you have your fingers crossed.

 

[Crow61]

Thanks for the replies. I have never owned a 1911 nor a Sig, so I am in a dilema. This will be a pistol that I will keep, use, and hand down to my son. I have never owned a high dollar gun, either. I know that to some of you these pistol mentioned may not fall into that category, but they do for me. And I want to get something that will last and be worth what I pay for it. I expect something that expensive to work out of the box. I am not opposed to other suggestions, but I just want a NICE pistol that is reliable and I can carry.

 

[strat81]

Sigs and 1911s need not be "high dollar guns." A Rock Island Tactical is fairly inexpensive, as is a CPO Sig. Both can be had for under $500.

 

[Rexster]

DMK, a heel-clip release is indeed more secure under more circumstances than a push-button release, but in my case, it was an issue. Thinking back, perhaps custom grip panels, that extended past the mag release, to shield it from the car seat, might have been an option. Perhaps I could have moved my duty holster a little further to the front of the belt. Ah, the coulda-shoulda-wouldas. I really liked that P220!

 

[Ala Dan]

Thumbs Up For SIG's

I carried an all West German SIG-SAUER P220A in .45 ACP for many years,
as a LEO duty weapon. It NEVER-EVER had any issues, and was far more
accurate than me right straight from the box. Now retired, I still do carry
it occassionally as my CCW of choice; the last time I carried it was just
yesterday 12-10-07~!

 

[DogBonz]

I had a Raptor

It was a beautiful pistol that ate any ammo that I could throw at it. The gun ran like a top, and the only time that I had any feeding issues was with the Kimber factory 8 round mags. The Kimber SS 7 rounders worked perfectly. My Wilson mags all worked perfectly. Even my USGI 7 rounders worked fine. Only the cheap crap mags that the gun came with didn't work.

I would still have the Raptor, but I needed money when I waqs moving and someone offered me almost what I paid for it, so I sold it, but I will get another one. The first thing that I will do when I get my new one is toss those crappy mags.

 

[motorheadjohn]

I love my SiGs, they are all great shooters, don't believe everything you read on the 'net.

My Kimber is a great shooter too!

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

The "classic" German-made SIGs I own (P228) or have owned (P220 .45) have been accurate and reliable. (They just don't fit my hands well.) New ones based on the "classic" P-22x series, even though they are no longer German-made, should be just fine IMO.

It should be noted that SIG-Sauer also makes 1911s. These are much more of a crapshoot. Some people got good ones, but I got one that was crap. At least their customer service has been good - they paid for shipping both ways and returned it promptly, even replacing my first gun after the third time something broke. But, that's the problem, isn't it.

 

[eldon519]

The 1911 suffers alot of the same problems as the AR-15. Both have made reputations as high-dollar weapons manufactured by virtually endless lists of manufacturers. Because there are tons of manufacturers making virtually interchangeable products, each company attempts to differentiate itself any way it can. Unfortunately, the bar for doing so has become accuracy rather than reliability. I blame alot of that on the fact that nearly every single gun magazine includes accuracy tests for each pistol tested, but hardly any authors will actually admit reliability problems with tested weapons. When they do, they shrug if off and blame it on break-in, bad mags, bad ammo, etc. To try to stand out in the accuracy department, all these different 1911 manufacturers tighten up all kinds of tolerances not really meant to be tight for reliability reasons. On the flip side, companies like Glock, SIG, HK, etc are the only companies to make their respective products. They know the best way to make it, and they don't have to compromise any aspects of the product to entice customers. If the consumer wants that company's product, they have to buy it from them. By contrast, just about every 1911 you run into is in fact some sort of pseudo-target/combat/race pistol. Jack of all trades, master of none. Two of the best exceptions seem to be the basic 1911s such as the Springfield Mil-Spec which is billed as a combat/service pistol without bells and whistles and the company who made them from day 1 and still apparently knows the correct way to make them, Colt.

The problem isn't with the 1911, it is that 1911s are grouped as a whole while in fact they are a collective sea of products made by numerous companies without common quality control standards and modified under misguided notions of what makes the gun better.

If you want to skip all that, the summary is, try a basic 1911 which is much more likely to be built closer to the original design, or buy a Colt because they know how they are actually supposed to be made.

 

[siglite]

You inspired me to post a poll here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=323026

 

[bluetopper]

Crow, the best buy in 1911's right now is the STI Spartan. A great 1911 and can be had for $600 and made in Texas. Look in to them.

 

[strat81]

Just a word on the Spartan: the frame and slide are made my Armscor of the Philippines and a bit of the assembly is done there. Internals are STI and final fitting and assembly is done in the states.

That's not a slam on the pistol, just stating what I (think I) know.

 

[wditto]

you are right, strat-o-shooter; the STI is a Philippine import partially assembled here after manufactured there.....costs nearly as much as the real thing, completely US made Colt

 

[coelacanth]

a good quality, plain vanilla 1911 A-1 type pistol. . . . .

loaded with good quality factory 230gr. ball type ammo may be the most reliable handgun ever made. I own 3 of them, all made by different manufacturers and they have all been 100% reliable so far with many thousands of rounds fired. A gun with extensive modifications to Browning's original design can be made to run reliably and even shoot ammo for which it was not designed but in my experience nothing beats the reliability of the original old warhorse and its favorite fodder. If there's something about that combo that you can't live with but you still have to have a 1911 style auto then you pays your money and you takes your chances. I have no personal experience with the pistols by SIG but the people I know who do are all favorably impressed with their pistols. If I were to carry a .45 auto in any other configuration than the 1911 type pistol it would be a SIG 220 or a Springfield XD. There is no absolute guarantee of reliability in any mechanical device so you are left to make your choice based on service history and the reputation of the manufacturer. Choose well and you will likely not be disappointed.

 

[R12GS]

you are right, strat-o-shooter; the STI is a Philippine import partially assembled here after manufactured there.....costs nearly as much as the real thing, completely US made Colt

Why pay $600 for an Armcorp, save the extra money and get a Colt or Springfield.

 

[1911Tuner]

The 1911 was designed by John Browning to go to war. It's a rattle trap and that's why it was reliable.

Spot on...on the first part. A popular myth raises its ugly head on the second.
The "rattletrap" USGI pistols hype comes largely from the fact that so many were worn out by the time they were released as surplus. Handle one that's in like-new condition and you're in for a pleasant surprise. They have a little play in the slide and frame...but not what you'd expect...and normally only if they're bone dry. Drop some oil in the rails, and the rattle goes away so completely that you have to push and pull pretty hard to detect any movement.

Lastly..."Rattle-Trap Loose" doesn't guarantee reliability any more than zero rattle guarantees it. Too far in either direction can and does affect functional reliability.

 

[Geno]

All I will respond is take it apart and examine it before you buy it. If you have to ask why, simply view the pictures that I have posted here in post #27...a seriously defective Pro Raptor:

http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3369113&postcount=27

I am not saying don't buy Kimber; I am saying examine it before you buy it. But then, I say and do the same thing for the Colts (and all other firearms) that I purchase.

Doc2005

 

[Zen21Tao]

I have 4 1911s (Springfield "loaded", Kimber Stainless Target 2, Stainless Rimfire Target, and a Sig GSR), 5 Sig handguns (P220, P229 Elite, P239, P245, and GSR), and 2 Para Ordnances (a Tac-4 and a 6.45 Carry) that are similar in platform to the 1911 but have Para's LDA trigger. I can honestly say that every one of these weapons has proven itself to be reliable.

I think that many people have misconceptions when it comes to weapons like these and they don't fully understand the trade off between reliability and accuracy. Making a gun more accurate often requires tighter more precise fitting which in turn creates more wear and tear on the these parts. It is also the case that the more precise the fitting, the more affect a tiny deviation or movement of that part will have on over all accuracy. Hence, dropping a 1911 capable of 2" groups at 20ft on the ground will affect that gun's immediate performance much more than dropping a Glock capable of 2" groups at 5ft would affect its performance.

Also, some people fail to understand that customization and tighter fit affect the potential for accuracy, not guarantee accuracy. They fully expect a customized gun to do all the work for them and then they blame the gun when their accuracy isn't consistent.

At any rate, I am a big fan of both 1911s and Sigs and feel that if you are realistic about your expectations, you won't be disappointed. I would suggest that you take a look at the Elite models of Sig over the Equinox, though. The Elites have a 1911 style beaver tail and an amazing short reset trigger.

 

[1911Tuner]

simply view the pictures that I have posted here in post #27...

Fixed the link for ya, Doc. If you want to call attention to a particular post within a thread...go to the number of the post at the top right...click...wait until it opens a new window...copy the url at the top for that post...paste. Neat.

 

[crazed_ss]

Why are these guns so expensive yet seem to have issues right out of the box

From what I can tell, they're expensive because they're built extremely well.

My new manufacture P220 and Springfield Armory 1911 work flawlessly. I was prepared for the 1911 to have all kinds of issues when I first took it out. I was pleasantly suprised when it shot 200rds without fail. My XD had a couple teething issues at first. The 1911, on the other hand was money right out of the box.