Smoothbore pistols

[Texasgrillchef]

Smoothbore pistols have to be registered with an NFA SBS tax stamp, even though they are a pistol with a stock. Is that correct? Or are they totally illegal? Or is it registered as a AOW?

So Mossberg with their AOW’s are paying the ATF $200 to make them, adding that to the cost, but then the NFA paperwork is $5 for the transfer. Am I understanding that correctly?

So if I make one makes a AOW on an eForm 1 then the tax stamp is $200? The AOW $5 tax stamp is only for transferring a AOW, and that’s still done on a form 4 which takes umpteen hundred months to complete?

Would it matter if I made one from cutting down a shotgun barrel, and Replacing the shoulder stock with a handgrip, or by making a change to an existing pistol?

My thought, is to take a Charles Daily triple barrel honcho (12 Gauge) with its 18” barrel and cutting it down to about 12”, give or take an inch.

 

[Jerry M]

Cutting off a shotgun (as originally manufactured) is a sawed-off shotgun. $200 tax stamp required. An AOW was manufactured originally to meet specifications from the frame that allow transfer as AOW = $5.

Carefully follow the law(s)

Good Luck

Jerry

 

[dogtown tom]

Smoothbore pistols have to be registered with an NFA SBS tax stamp, even though they are a pistol with a stock. Is that correct? Or are they totally illegal? Or is it registered as a AOW?

The answer depends on whether its originally manufactured as a handgun, other firearm, rifle or shotgun.
A smoothbore pistol is an AOW. (pretty rare to find one nowadays)
A pistol with added shoulder stock is Short Barrelled Rifle. (Adding a shoulder stock to a Taurus Judge for example)
A smoothbore firearm with pistol grip, that expels a shotgun shell and is over 26" OAL is just a "firearm", not NFA. (such as Rem TAC14 or Mossberg Shockwave)
A Moss Shockwave or TAC14 with an OAL of less than 26" would require an approved Form 1 before shortening the OAL.

So Mossberg with their AOW’s are paying the ATF $200 to make them, adding that to the cost, but then the NFA paperwork is $5 for the transfer. Am I understanding that correctly?

07FFL Manufacturers do not pay ATF tax stamps on each firearm. The Special Occupational Tax is a single yearly payment of $500-$1000 depending on gross receipts. 07/SOT would list the firearms they manufacture on an ATF Form 2 Notice of Firearms Manufactured or Imported.

So if I make one makes a AOW on an eForm 1 then the tax stamp is $200?

Correct.
But I would caution on going the AOW route because it precludes ever attaching a shoulder stock. Form 1 as an SBR or SBS means you can change configuration woth/without stock.

The AOW $5 tax stamp is only for transferring a AOW, and that’s still done on a form 4 which takes umpteen hundred months to complete?

Correct. And umpteen hundred months is actually seven months according to ATF's latest info.

Would it matter if I made one from cutting down a shotgun barrel, and Replacing the shoulder stock with a handgrip, or by making a change to an existing pistol?

Yes.
If originally a shotgun, you're only capable of making an SBS.
If originally a pistol, you can make it into an AOW by reaming the barrel smooth.

My thought, is to take a Charles Daily triple barrel honcho (12 Gauge) with its 18” barrel and cutting it down to about 12”, give or take an inch.

The CD Honcho is a "firearm", not meeting the definition of handgun, long gun or shotgun in Federal law.
Your options:
-shortening either OAL or bbl length to less than 26" makes it an AOW, as does concealing it. If at a later date you want to add a shoulder stock, pay another $200 for a Form 1 SBS.
-attaching a shoulder stock makes it an SBS. As an SBS, you can choose any configuration you want, shoulder stock/no stock, pistol grip or no, any length bbl you want.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

The CD Honcho is a "firearm", not meeting the definition of handgun, long gun or shotgun in Federal law.
Your options:
-shortening either OAL or bbl length to less than 26" makes it an AOW, as does concealing it. If at a later date you want to add a shoulder stock, pay another $200 for a Form 1 SBS.
-attaching a shoulder stock makes it an SBS. As an SBS, you can choose any configuration you want, shoulder stock/no stock, pistol grip or no, any length bbl you want.

Well I have two short barrel rifles now. One I made by just replacing the barrel with a shorter one. The other one was a mares leg (pistol) and added a full shoulder stock. Legally done with eForm 1’s.

I have a SBS as well, a Mossberg Maverick 88 that I cut the barrel off to 16” legal as well with eForm 1

I just bought a CD Triple Honcho. I also have a Pedersoli Howdah Hunter 20 gauge, along with its add on stock. I really like my Howdah, I do enjoy the BP of it all too. But thought it would be nice to have something similar in a centerfire 12 gauge. The added third barrel of a CD makes it ever nicer.

I as always want to be legal, especially when it comes to the ATF/NFA. So figuring it would still require an eForm 1 and $200. But was curious to know if it would make it a AOW or SBS?

I guess it would depend on if I reported the length with a removable shoulder stock (Like the one used with the Pedersoli Howdah Hunter), or reported the length without the removable shoulder stock? would that make a difference? Would one way be legal to use the removable shoulder and the Other illegal?

 

[dogtown tom]

I as always want to be legal, especially when it comes to the ATF/NFA. So figuring it would still require an eForm 1 and $200. But was curious to know if it would make it a AOW or SBS?

I answered that above.
If you shorten the OAL of the CD Honcho (a firearm) you make an AOW.
If you add a shoulder stock to the CD Honcho (a firearm) you make an SBS.
If you add a shoulder stock to your Form 1 CD Honcho AOW you make an SBS.

I guess it would depend on if I reported the length with a removable shoulder stock (Like the one used with the Pedersoli Howdah Hunter), or reported the length without the removable shoulder stock?

This isn't the place to guess. When you Form 1 a firearm you must report the OAL and barrel length of the firearm you will make.
If you are making an AOW you CANNOT ATTACH A SHOULDER STOCK. That's because you would be making a SBS.

would that make a difference?

Of course it would.

Would one way be legal to use the removable shoulder and the Other illegal?

Seriously?
I've explained how to legally configure a Honcho as an AOW and as an SBS in the post above. If there was no difference legally, ATF wouldn't have two different classifications. They do.

I'm not sure of your motives. If its simply "what stamp do I need to do X?"..........you have your answer.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

I'm not sure of your motives. If its simply "what stamp do I need to do X?"..........you have your answer.

My apologies for being a little slow, plus a couple of my responses were rhetorical type questions.

I guess what I want isn’t legal, due to the fact that one way is an AOW and the other is a SBS which are both NFA items. I see I have to choose one or the other and can’t go back n forth between the two.

As a result, since I have to choose one or the other I will go with the AOW, as it doesn’t have a shoulder stock, and I would either have to buy one that goes on their other triple barrels or fabricate one myself. So AOW is what I will make

Shame the ATF, doesn’t have a way for us to go back n forth between the two.

 

[dogtown tom]

My apologies for being a little slow, plus a couple of my responses were rhetorical type questions.

I guess what I want isn’t legal, due to the fact that one way is an AOW and the other is a SBS which are both NFA items. I see I have to choose one or the other and can’t go back n forth between the two.

As a result, since I have to choose one or the other I will go with the AOW, as it doesn’t have a shoulder stock, and I would either have to buy one that goes on their other triple barrels or fabricate one myself. So AOW is what I will make

Shame the ATF, doesn’t have a way for us to go back n forth between the two.

You didn't read a thing I wrote.
Again, make as SBS and it can look like anything you want, Including reconfiguration as a Title I shotgun.
Versus, making as an AOW and you are stuck with an AOW.

But its your $200.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

You didn't read a thing I wrote.
Again, make as SBS and it can look like anything you want, Including reconfiguration as a Title I shotgun.
Versus, making as an AOW and you are stuck with an AOW.

But its your $200.

ok sorry thats the part i didnt understand.
So file it as an SBS anf then if i want it to be an aow on monday i can make it yhat way and on tuesday a sbs and wednesday back to aow and not have to file a
new
form 1?

 

[748]

It was my understanding that if you take a gun that was made a shotgun 18+ long barrel and 28+ over all length and cut it down then it's a $200 sbs.

I just paid the $200 and turned mine into sbs. It can be anything from a fairly useless 14 inch pistol grip pump all the way back to a Joe Biden approved full length shotgun or anything in between.
The 14 inch barrel on the full size wood stock works pretty good.

 

[Prince Yamato]

If you’re doing a Form 1, do an SBS.

if you’re buying one on a Form 4, then you need to look at if the $195 discount offsets the fact you can never have a stock.

The only other advantage to an AOW is that it doesn’t need a 5320.20 if you take it across state lines.

 

[dogtown tom]

ok sorry thats the part i didnt understand.
So file it as an SBS anf then if i want it to be an aow on monday i can make it yhat way and on tuesday a sbs and wednesday back to aow and not have to file a
new
form 1?

No.
You file your Form 1 as an SBS because it allows you to configure the firearm in virtually anyway you want, at any time. without notifying anyone.
Pistol grip with any length bbl.
Shoulder stock with any length bbl. (even as a Title I shotgun...at least 18"bbl and at least 26"OAL)

You ARE NOT going to have "an AOW on Monday" because you don't have an AOW at all.....you have a short barrel shotgun by definition.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...1f715314&mc=true&node=se27.3.479_111&rgn=div8
(NFA) Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. The term shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machine gun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Director finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon. For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

Any other weapon. Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

This last line is why "making" as an SBS is better.......from the CD Honcho you can make an NFA firearm identical to what you could as an AOW, but ALSO have the option to add a shoulder stock.

 

[dogtown tom]

It was my understanding that if you take a gun that was made a shotgun 18+ long barrel and 28+ over all length and cut it down then it's a $200 sbs.

He's not doing that, he's starting with a firearm not defined as a "shotgun".....the CD Honcho (similiar to Mossberg Shockwave & Rem 870 Tac14).

I just paid the $200 and turned mine into sbs. It can be anything from a fairly useless 14 inch pistol grip pump all the way back to a Joe Biden approved full length shotgun or anything in between.
The 14 inch barrel on the full size wood stock works pretty good.

I have a 14" Rem 870 "Secret Service Contract" that one of my USSS buddies craves.
But I shoot a beater factory 14" 870 Wingmaster most often.