So I got this crazy idea with a Puma 92 in .357...

[shinyroks]

So, bear with me,

I have a Puma 92 .357. I also have a Puma 92 in .454.

Operating pressure of the 454 is almost 2x what the .357 is.

There is more metal in the barrel on the 357 (octagon) than there is on the .454 (round).

Now, as people are jumping to conclusions, i do not want to bring the .357 up to .454 operating pressures, but over standard .357 pressures. All of the reloading data I have looked at limits levers to less than revolver pressures. I am guessing this is to either to limit liability if someone sticks these rounds in a revolver, or in one of the single-locking bar models of lever action.

Would it be possible to bring the .357 out of a 24" octagon puma to around 35 Rem. velocities?

Btw, I want to use something on the order of Hornady XTP-FP.

 

[mike28w]

I'm no expert , but it's my understanding that the action on the 454 is not the same as the other Puma's.... Not sure if the difference is structural or different steel composition.....

I'd recommend very careful research before attempting.....JMO, mike

PS: remember where you're putting your face when you pull that trigger...be safe

 

[targetshooter22]

Yeah, I learned a saying about this kind of stuff. It's called "teasing the dragon" and you can guess what happens when you tease too far. If you were to tell me that 357 load data has had the crap lawyered out of it once the small ultra light CCW revolvers came out, and the data is a pale shadow of what the cartridge was 15 years ago I would believe you. If you were to tell me that data from 15 years ago was really light and they didn't really mean max was max, well, I might not agree. Best to stick with something safer than teasing the dragon, life is short, and there is a lot left to be enjoyed.

 

[shinyroks]

Thanks for the input. I am currently researching the topic, and so far have come to the conclusion that there are much better platforms for this kind of power, notably the model 8 that was designed around the 35 Rem.

Also cheaper than an E-room visit... or a funeral...

 

[goon]

And a .357 out of a rifle length barrel is nothing to trifle with in its own right.
If you want to get more thump out of it safely, you might try creating a handload that will duplicate the heavy .357 loads offered by Buffalo Bore.

 

[7.62 Nato]

Another thing to take into consideration is the brass. The 35 Rem. rifle brass is much more substantial at the base than the .357 Rem. magnum PISTOL brass.

 

[greyling22]

is there enough room in the action to ream the chamber out to 357 max? That gets tossed around with marlin periodically, but the 92 action is too short I believe. If the action is still too short maybe use the wildcat 357 special magnum? http://ammoguide.com/?catid=247

(or use a 38-40, a 44-40, or a .357/.44 Bain & Davis)

 

[shinyroks]

Those buffalo bore seem to come really close to 35 rem anyhow, maybe some 100fps behind after you add 6 inches to the test barrel. Or not. It seems possible to hit the lower end, but I will be careful. Has anyone tried SR-4759 in 357? I did try putting a trapdoor 45-70 load into a 454 (carefully, and stepping up) using 4759. It was successful, and has become one of my my favorite loads for that gun (230gn cast w/ 300gn load data). Wondered if there might be any logic in trying this with 357.

 

[shinyroks]

is there enough room in the action to ream the chamber out to 357 max? That gets tossed around with marlin periodically, but the 92 action is too short I believe. If the action is still too short maybe use the wildcat 357 special magnum? http://ammoguide.com/?catid=247

(or use a 38-40, a 44-40, or a .357/.44 Bain & Davis)

I had talked to my gunsmith about that last year. Being a 92 fan himself, he had actually put some serious thought behind that. He said there is no way to get that much length in that action, even with a modified lever that would move al the way forward (much farther than the 30-30 94). That in itself would ruin my one of my favorite perks to the rifle, the 90deg lever throw. not to mention that it is just too short...

The special magnum seems interesting, but I think the action may be a bit short for that even, as it currently barely clears 357 factory loads. I think if I were to do that I'd have to load them short, eliminating any benefit...

 

[jason41987]

7.62 nato said what i was going to say that the biggest limiting factor for 357 magnum in modern firearms and lever actions like the 1892 and clones (which can handle quite a lot of pressure thanks to brownings genius) would be the case itself

 

[shinyroks]

So if I were to try developing a load, maybe 357 max brass trimmed back? I have heard that 357 max didnt really allow for higher pressures, but just for case volume. Is 357 max brass actually suited for higher pressures? I dont have a load data book that shows pressures for 357 max...

 

[35 Whelen]

+1 on the limits of the brass strength. You could try the Maximum brass, but remember that in order for it to be stronger, it has to be heavier which reduces the capacity of the case.

You're not going to get 35 Remington ballistics out of a .357 rifle. Period.

I own a Rossi 357 and with no load development (not working up to max) am getting well over 1700 fps with my cast 173 gr. SWCHP.

Just appreciate and use the rifle for what it is.


35W

 

[ThomasT]

Just appreciate and use the rifle for what it is.

The best answer so far. I use to load my Rossi to over 1800fps with a 158gr bullet. Reaching 35 remington power is just not in the cards. I see 35 remington marlins for sale all the time. My buddy has one for sale right now. The problem is finding ammo and componants.

I never understood trying to turn one caliber into another by overloading the cartridge. There are plenty of rifle choices that leave the 35 remington at the starting gate. Making a 357 into a 35 remington is not going to give you a giant killer.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/compare.htm

According to this the standard 30-30 is better than the 35 remington.

 

[shinyroks]

The best answer so far. I use to load my Rossi to over 1800fps with a 158gr bullet. Reaching 35 remington power is just not in the cards. I see 35 remington marlins for sale all the time. My buddy has one for sale right now. The problem is finding ammo and componants.

I never understood trying to turn one caliber into another by overloading the cartridge. There are plenty of rifle choices that leave the 35 remington at the starting gate. Making a 357 into a 35 remington is not going to give you a giant killer.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/compare.htm

According to this the standard 30-30 is better than the 35 remington.

i understand that, that is why I wanted to come close to 35 remington, not 30-30. If I enjoyed a ton of recoil for no gain, I would already own a marlin 95 in 30-30, but it kicks harder than my mosin for ~2/3 the energy output.

Basically looking for a compromise, in a platform that I really appreciate (92 winchester). I was wondering if that was possible. I am currently looking for a model 8, so if I dont reach that safely it is no big worry. I wont sacrifice limbs to 'make it happen'. This is why the question is posted in the first place...

 

[MichaelK]

Another alternative for you is the 44 magnum in the model 1894. The internal balistics of the 200 grain bullet equal or excede those of the 35 REM.

I've used my 44 Marlin for deer hunting and I can attest to it's performance with a one-shot kill of a western mule deer. Classic DRT shot.

How is the .454 not meeting your expectations? Is it too much recoil/ammunition availability? Perhaps Ruger-level .45 Colt handloads would meet your objectives.

 

[mavracer]

You can't really get anywhere close to 35 rem ballistics it'll do ~2000 fps with 200gr bullets. That said you can make a 357 very formatable out of a 24" barrel 158gr at close to 2000fps is possible working up carefully, I've had exellent results with H110/WW296.

 

[shinyroks]

Another alternative for you is the 44 magnum in the model 1894. The internal balistics of the 200 grain bullet equal or excede those of the 35 REM.

I've used my 44 Marlin for deer hunting and I can attest to it's performance with a one-shot kill of a western mule deer. Classic DRT shot.

How is the .454 not meeting your expectations? Is it too much recoil/ammunition availability? Perhaps Ruger-level .45 Colt handloads would meet your objectives.

I guess the .454 will do the job, I wanted a good load with a bit less recoil. I was hoping to get a little hotter load out of the .357 because clays are easy prey at 100-200 yards open sights, and was hoping to harness that with a little more power (ie deer/antelope at 250 yds, coyotes at 3...) with that accuracy. The rifle seems more balanced than the .454 as well, i think the longer/octagonal barrel aids in that feel for me.

I also am a born tinkerer, which may prove my downfall in this regard. Looks like I may just write off the project due to safety concerns and from the feedback I'm getting here.

I do have a pet load for the .454 - 405 gns at 1400 fps. using H-110. It is actually a very mild recoiling round, and I have loaded it into 45 cases as well. I am satisfied with that load, guess my tinkering gets the best of me sometimes. That is why I posted here, get some advice and experience in the matter at hand.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Would it be possible to bring the .357 out of a 24" octagon puma to around 35 Rem. velocities?

.

in a word NO


I have a 357 MAXimum 24" tc encore barrel I've been developing load data for as well as a 35 remington 760 AND an assortment of 357 mags. So i speak from experience when I say

357mag will NEVER match a maximum and maximum is NO 35rem

 

[1 old 0311-1]

I don't know BUT I love my levers. Good luck.

 

[ThomasT]

Shineyrocks you are getting good advise here. The 357 will never reach the 35 remington. And I do load my 44 mag with 200gr bullets and can get just a little over 2000fps which should in theory match the 35 remington in power. The 35 will always be better at ranges past 100 yards.

My rossi had a 1/30 twist and bullets would destabilize past 150 yards. I used to shoot from a hill into a plowed field and at 200 yards it hit all over the place. My Marlin with a 1/18 twist will do far better than the rossi I used to own.

Anyway good luck with your project. Brian Pearce wrote a very good article on 357 lever guns in the April 2006 Rifle Magazine. You can get a back issue from Rifle/Handloader and do more research.

If I enjoyed a ton of recoil for no gain, I would already own a marlin 95 in 30-30, but it kicks harder than my mosin for ~2/3 the energy output.

I don't beleive any 30-30 kicks more than a M/N. The Marlin 30-30 comes in the 336 not the model 95.

 

[Jim Watson]

Buy a .44 rifle, put the .357 barrel on it and rechamber for .357 B&D.

 

[Surculus]

Google ".357 Maximum." Should be easily & safely usable in a modern LA like your Puma. Work with relatively slow powders to take advantage of the added barrel length afforded by your rifle vs. original handgun loadings.

 

[VA27]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the 357 Bain & Davis. It uses 44 Mag brass necked down to 357. It'll get you close to the 357 Max and it'll fit in the '92.

 

[Jim Watson]

Guess I shouldn't have abbreviated Bain and Davis as B&D a couple of posts ago.

 

[mike28w]

I've always been a little surprised that the 357/44 Bain Davis hasn't caught on , more than it has....seems like a very neat cartridge in a very handy package....