Sometimes this isn't always the best option though. Right off hand the luby's massacre comes to mind. A gunman walked through the restaurant executing people who were not allowed to carry concealed firearms. Placating the shooter wasn't an option. Their only chance was to use whatever pocket knives they might have had or what items they might have had on their table. It may not happen often, but it does sometimes happen.
So lets say you DO bring a knife to a gun fight. . .
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Byron Quick
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I think some of you guys need to go hog hunting with a knife. The instant stop with a blade that is not capable of decapitation is very, very iffy.
Tactical advantage can make the difference but even with cutting a throat clear to the spinal columan, I'd be surprised I didn't get shot if I didn't get control of the gun arm. Doing so from any position besides directly behind the gunman would be difficult. Even from directly behind, I'd rather bean them with a brick.
Tactical advantage can make the difference but even with cutting a throat clear to the spinal columan, I'd be surprised I didn't get shot if I didn't get control of the gun arm. Doing so from any position besides directly behind the gunman would be difficult. Even from directly behind, I'd rather bean them with a brick.
Fulcrum of Evil
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here's what you'd have to do:
get inside the other guy's range and stay there. Make eye contact and go for the jugular, because he's going to try and shoot you.
Alternative: no knife. grab the gun hand with both hands and lock your arms. Keep the muzzle away from you and fold the gun towards his palm.
If you try and push the gun hand away, all he has to do is back up (and that's what he'll do). Grab with one arm and his pulling away will align the gun towards you. Whatever you do, don't get bound up on anything - things evolve very fast and survival requires that you maintain flexibility.
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Disembowelling is really hard with someone who's fighing back, especially if they have a gun
Refer to the other people talking about guys walking in the ER with mortal wounds. Best bet is to kill and control the gun hand. One grisly approach is to stab in the throat and then into the collar - use the knife as a handle and keep the gun arm straight with the other hand. Maybe you can get to the mag release...
get inside the other guy's range and stay there. Make eye contact and go for the jugular, because he's going to try and shoot you.
Alternative: no knife. grab the gun hand with both hands and lock your arms. Keep the muzzle away from you and fold the gun towards his palm.
If you try and push the gun hand away, all he has to do is back up (and that's what he'll do). Grab with one arm and his pulling away will align the gun towards you. Whatever you do, don't get bound up on anything - things evolve very fast and survival requires that you maintain flexibility.
edit:
Disembowelling is really hard with someone who's fighing back, especially if they have a gun
Refer to the other people talking about guys walking in the ER with mortal wounds. Best bet is to kill and control the gun hand. One grisly approach is to stab in the throat and then into the collar - use the knife as a handle and keep the gun arm straight with the other hand. Maybe you can get to the mag release...
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brerrabbit
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Soybomb
If you approach or try to attack the guy with the gun with a visible knife, odds are if he has half of a clue and is a decent shot, you are getting ventilated.
While massacres have happened because people did not fight back, generally that does not happen. A lot of it has to do with the general question of "why is the guy brandishing a gun?" in the first place.
1. Robbery- Give him my wallet and tell him to have a nice day.
2. Getting caught fiddling around with his wife- run like hell.
3. P.O ed at someone in the group- try to talk him down.
etc etc
Not every confrontation with someone with a gun is going to be a massacre, and truth be told, even the gun being fired does not happen in a large percentage of these instances.
Be cool. most of you are acting like a the only tool you have is a hammer and every problem is a nail. Trying to solve the problem of a confrontation with someone with a gun by using a knife is less likely to yield good results than other common sense means.
If you approach or try to attack the guy with the gun with a visible knife, odds are if he has half of a clue and is a decent shot, you are getting ventilated.
While massacres have happened because people did not fight back, generally that does not happen. A lot of it has to do with the general question of "why is the guy brandishing a gun?" in the first place.
1. Robbery- Give him my wallet and tell him to have a nice day.
2. Getting caught fiddling around with his wife- run like hell.
3. P.O ed at someone in the group- try to talk him down.
etc etc
Not every confrontation with someone with a gun is going to be a massacre, and truth be told, even the gun being fired does not happen in a large percentage of these instances.
Be cool. most of you are acting like a the only tool you have is a hammer and every problem is a nail. Trying to solve the problem of a confrontation with someone with a gun by using a knife is less likely to yield good results than other common sense means.
Assuming the need for lethal force is real and immediate ; Seems like the general consensus is : " Comply and or Die. " , thanks anyway , guys. I'll fight.
Keeping a bat or breaker bar in you car is great - it's not on your belt though , is it ? If you're going to be leaving the Big Ones in the car , maybe it oughta be a shotgun. A good knife is ready at hand all the time.
Get close , grab on , and commence cutting until the threat is over. Avoid getting shot. The details will sort themselves out on their own , provided you really mean it.
Keeping a bat or breaker bar in you car is great - it's not on your belt though , is it ? If you're going to be leaving the Big Ones in the car , maybe it oughta be a shotgun. A good knife is ready at hand all the time.
Get close , grab on , and commence cutting until the threat is over. Avoid getting shot. The details will sort themselves out on their own , provided you really mean it.
B.D. Turner
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In my opinion one would be better to disarm the GM rather than pull a knife.
The thought on this is to pull a knife will require two movements at the very least. One : You will need to reach for the knife. Two: You will need to attack the GM.
In disarming you will need to make a plan in your mind and then execute a single move to disarm the GM.
Either will require hours of hands on training to be at the point that you would be effective.
The thought on this is to pull a knife will require two movements at the very least. One : You will need to reach for the knife. Two: You will need to attack the GM.
In disarming you will need to make a plan in your mind and then execute a single move to disarm the GM.
Either will require hours of hands on training to be at the point that you would be effective.
SniperStraz
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Fulcrum of Evil Get inside the other guy's range? Absolutely! Go for the jugular? Maybe. But I'm pretty sure that if I'm trying to disarm a GM the last place I'll be looking is his eyes! I'll take a quick glance at his other hand to see what else he's got and then my eyes won't leave that gun until its in a safe place.
Options vs no options
When your wrongly-chosen alternative would involve these words: "Gee, don't he look good wearing a suit and tie, laying in that silk-lined casket", then there is no shame in running away from larger numbers of bad guys. One BG with a revolver is at least 5 BGs, maybe as many as eight. And a pistol is maybe 12 or so BGs. We had fire-power in Viet Nam but charlie had tunnels and used them. And we lost. "Get small, get cover, or get away" are all good options. RUN like hell, if you are not paid to stand in the gap between BGs and innocents. But if you are trapped, or if you are trapped with loved ones, you had better have done a LOT of training. I give you no way out here. Get together with a trusted friend plus an observer/spotter and a rubber-gun and a rubber-knife and train until you piss down your leg, because you WILL end up laughing. Because "not real" can be funny. Then when the real white-knuckles case goes down, you will know better what to do. Personally, if I am restricted to a blade, it goes across the jugulars and then in any eye. "Across the fore-arm muscles" seems plausible, but a BG can't change hands on that jugular move. I carry an IWB 8" nylon-holstered dagger when a gun is forbidden. If it fails, I'll try twisting the gun towards center-line & away from the trigger-finger & into my own hands. "Fire until threat ends" is next. Add stomp, if necessary. Then dial 911 and wait. I also try to stay "prayed up."
When your wrongly-chosen alternative would involve these words: "Gee, don't he look good wearing a suit and tie, laying in that silk-lined casket", then there is no shame in running away from larger numbers of bad guys. One BG with a revolver is at least 5 BGs, maybe as many as eight. And a pistol is maybe 12 or so BGs. We had fire-power in Viet Nam but charlie had tunnels and used them. And we lost. "Get small, get cover, or get away" are all good options. RUN like hell, if you are not paid to stand in the gap between BGs and innocents. But if you are trapped, or if you are trapped with loved ones, you had better have done a LOT of training. I give you no way out here. Get together with a trusted friend plus an observer/spotter and a rubber-gun and a rubber-knife and train until you piss down your leg, because you WILL end up laughing. Because "not real" can be funny. Then when the real white-knuckles case goes down, you will know better what to do. Personally, if I am restricted to a blade, it goes across the jugulars and then in any eye. "Across the fore-arm muscles" seems plausible, but a BG can't change hands on that jugular move. I carry an IWB 8" nylon-holstered dagger when a gun is forbidden. If it fails, I'll try twisting the gun towards center-line & away from the trigger-finger & into my own hands. "Fire until threat ends" is next. Add stomp, if necessary. Then dial 911 and wait. I also try to stay "prayed up."
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gbundersea
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True knife vs. gun story
(Secondhand, but from my CWL instructor, a trusted source.)
My CWL instructor had a student take the CC course, but the fellow was too young to legally own a handgun. (I guess he just wanted the training, and had the extra money to get it.) However, the guy always carried a knife, and knew how to use it.
One day he was walking in a less than ideal neighborhood (not sure why, as I don't know him personally) he saw 3 guys approaching him from in front. While still very far away, 2 of them veered off, apparently departing the area. As the remaining guy got closer, the good guy noticed his eyes were shifting left and right, putting GG on alert. He turned and saw that the other 2 had circled around and were now approaching from the rear. He had his hand on his knife, blade ready. Right about then BG#1 was upon him, pulling a Glock from a cross-draw position. The GG didn't hesitate - he grabbed the gun hand, and with the other drew the knife as hard as possible across the inner wrist, apparently slashing all the way to bone. Blood spewed everywhere, and the pistol hit the ground. He immediately picked it up and spun around to face his other 2 attackers, only to find they were GONE!
A witness had called 911, and apparently police were on the scene within 60 seconds (station right down the street.) Incredibly, BG#1 (shooter) clamped down on his wrist so hard that he didn't bleed out as he ran 4-5 blocks to a hospital, where he was arrested. (Of course, long criminal record, stolen gun, etc.) The police were amazed that he survived such a severe wound.
So, with alertness and Lady Luck playing a big part, this was one case where a knife beat a gun. Had the GG not been skilled with a knife, and alert, or the other BG's been armed and/or not wussies, the outcome would've been different.
In any case, NOT a situation in which I'd like to find myself!
(Secondhand, but from my CWL instructor, a trusted source.)
My CWL instructor had a student take the CC course, but the fellow was too young to legally own a handgun. (I guess he just wanted the training, and had the extra money to get it.) However, the guy always carried a knife, and knew how to use it.
One day he was walking in a less than ideal neighborhood (not sure why, as I don't know him personally) he saw 3 guys approaching him from in front. While still very far away, 2 of them veered off, apparently departing the area. As the remaining guy got closer, the good guy noticed his eyes were shifting left and right, putting GG on alert. He turned and saw that the other 2 had circled around and were now approaching from the rear. He had his hand on his knife, blade ready. Right about then BG#1 was upon him, pulling a Glock from a cross-draw position. The GG didn't hesitate - he grabbed the gun hand, and with the other drew the knife as hard as possible across the inner wrist, apparently slashing all the way to bone. Blood spewed everywhere, and the pistol hit the ground. He immediately picked it up and spun around to face his other 2 attackers, only to find they were GONE!
A witness had called 911, and apparently police were on the scene within 60 seconds (station right down the street.) Incredibly, BG#1 (shooter) clamped down on his wrist so hard that he didn't bleed out as he ran 4-5 blocks to a hospital, where he was arrested. (Of course, long criminal record, stolen gun, etc.) The police were amazed that he survived such a severe wound.
So, with alertness and Lady Luck playing a big part, this was one case where a knife beat a gun. Had the GG not been skilled with a knife, and alert, or the other BG's been armed and/or not wussies, the outcome would've been different.
In any case, NOT a situation in which I'd like to find myself!
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chemist308
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Put my finger in the muzzle of his gun. It worked for bugs bunny! 
If I could not do it I wouldn't draw my weapon in that case. You apologize for whatever offended the guy, give the guy your wallet if that's what he wants and say whatever it takes to diffuse things a bit. It's a fight you probably won't win, so it's one you have to avoid if you can.
That said, remember the knife is only an extension of your arm. If your arm is blocked so is the knife. Your feet can be pretty devastating. Even if you're not flexible you can kick kneecaps, possibly groin and bones on the top of his foot with your heel. Busting his kneecap stops a fight pretty quick. Try to control to gun with one arm while attacking with the other. If you can attack the arm with the gun--I don't think someone with a forearm stab can hold a gun as well--you're chances might increase. But the neck, temple, ribs, and solar plexis (breadbasket) are good primary targets. Punch and slash at the face, too. That said, even having had four years of martial arts training that's one fight I'd go to any length to avoid.
If I could not do it I wouldn't draw my weapon in that case. You apologize for whatever offended the guy, give the guy your wallet if that's what he wants and say whatever it takes to diffuse things a bit. It's a fight you probably won't win, so it's one you have to avoid if you can.
That said, remember the knife is only an extension of your arm. If your arm is blocked so is the knife. Your feet can be pretty devastating. Even if you're not flexible you can kick kneecaps, possibly groin and bones on the top of his foot with your heel. Busting his kneecap stops a fight pretty quick. Try to control to gun with one arm while attacking with the other. If you can attack the arm with the gun--I don't think someone with a forearm stab can hold a gun as well--you're chances might increase. But the neck, temple, ribs, and solar plexis (breadbasket) are good primary targets. Punch and slash at the face, too. That said, even having had four years of martial arts training that's one fight I'd go to any length to avoid.
geronimotwo
Member
what about using the butt end of the knife as a better skull knocker? even a closed protruding pocket knife would increase the psi at point of impact considerably i would think.
is it better to grab the wrist, or the gun?
is it better to grab the wrist, or the gun?
The problem here is one of force and survival. People in this thread are assuming that if you have a gun and shoot the person, you won't get cut. The two are not mutually exclusive, especially in the handgun world. Even the biggest handgun doesn't do "manstopper." That's all crap. If the knife-wielder is within 3-7 yards and headed for you, and you unload into them, you've still got a pretty good likelihood of getting cut.
Here in Oregon, we had a Salem office respond to a domestic. He split the pair up putting the woman in the kitchen (really bad idea). As he's questioning the male, female comes out of the kitchen with a big frigging kitchen knife. He unloads 6 shots out of a .357 mag into her center of mass. He still took over 600(!!!) stitches. Female died, but I don't think the officer was too pleased with the outcome. She did some real damage.
Noops
Here in Oregon, we had a Salem office respond to a domestic. He split the pair up putting the woman in the kitchen (really bad idea). As he's questioning the male, female comes out of the kitchen with a big frigging kitchen knife. He unloads 6 shots out of a .357 mag into her center of mass. He still took over 600(!!!) stitches. Female died, but I don't think the officer was too pleased with the outcome. She did some real damage.
Noops
If I only had a knife, while accosted by a gunman, and I was within striking distance, I would not slash anything if I could instead stab. I would stab repeatedly, if feasible, to center mass, just below the rib cage with an upward motion until the threat stopped. At the same time I would attempt to gain control of the gun with my other hand.
In my mind, this option is certainly better than giving up. Once you give up you are at the mercy of the bad guy. Bad guys don't exhibit mercy often enough to make me comfortable in the belief that they would be merciful to me at any given moment.
All the best,
Glenn B
In my mind, this option is certainly better than giving up. Once you give up you are at the mercy of the bad guy. Bad guys don't exhibit mercy often enough to make me comfortable in the belief that they would be merciful to me at any given moment.
All the best,
Glenn B
mpmarty
Member
It all depends.... I carry a sykes fairbairn and it is a great knife but it is not a fight stopper in most cases. If I'm unobserved and the BG is pointing at 90 degrees or more to me I would be inclined to use the butt end of the knife and drive it into his skull or if approaching from the rear an upwards thrust into the base of the skull HARD with all the force my body could muster. then again, if it were possible, I'd just as soon wake up in bed and find it was my nightmares again.
Night, Night all the knife guys you are dead.
Close enough to grab the gun are you serious? In most situations you will become meat on the floor. Work your martial art skills all you want bet you die IMHO.
Fantasy land post.
This will bring on flames but I worked the inner city for 25 years and a gun beats a knife every time. You may cut the gun holder but it will not keep them from shooting you.
Close enough to grab the gun are you serious? In most situations you will become meat on the floor. Work your martial art skills all you want bet you die IMHO.
Fantasy land post.
This will bring on flames but I worked the inner city for 25 years and a gun beats a knife every time. You may cut the gun holder but it will not keep them from shooting you.
fireflyfather
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gezzer: disclaimer--I have no wish to be a part of any gun or knife fight, ever.
There's a HUGE difference between slashing(cutting) and stabbing. That Salem cop is very lucky all he got was stitches. Pistol vs knife at point blank range between two reasonably competent fighters is, more often than not, a recipe for two very dead people, notwithstanding a CNS shot from the gun, or INCREDIBLE skill, fitness & luck on the part of the knife wielder.
There's a HUGE difference between slashing(cutting) and stabbing. That Salem cop is very lucky all he got was stitches. Pistol vs knife at point blank range between two reasonably competent fighters is, more often than not, a recipe for two very dead people, notwithstanding a CNS shot from the gun, or INCREDIBLE skill, fitness & luck on the part of the knife wielder.
Oohrah
Member
If that gun man is aware of you, NEVER, NEVER take a knife to a
gun fight. If you are lucky, then you will make a point. The odds
of you surviving...priceless.
gun fight. If you are lucky, then you will make a point. The odds
of you surviving...priceless.
SniperStraz
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Gezzer I believe that most of the time cutting the gun holder won't keep them from shooting you, but it could. I don't think anyone here is saying that a knife would be an ideal weapon in such a case, its just a "what if".
Not to question your experience, but during those 25 years were any of the "knife fighters" trained in knife fighting? I think the most important thing for everyone to realize is that just like a gun, if you are going to carry a knife as weapon you need to be trained in using it. I know it seems like a much easier tool to use, and it does indeed have a simpler manual of arms
, but using a knife efficiently takes training and practice.Kael
Member
I'd recommend the recent dog brothers/gabe suarez video for some interesting ideas on the topic. (albeit, mostly defending against the knife with the gun, but it was still an eye opener for me.)
IMHO, if you can act before or during the BG's draw (such as what happened with gbundersea's account) you might have a chance. After the gun is drawn and pointed at you...who knows.
I live in a state where I can't get a CCW, so this is of particular interest for me.
IMHO, if you can act before or during the BG's draw (such as what happened with gbundersea's account) you might have a chance. After the gun is drawn and pointed at you...who knows.
I live in a state where I can't get a CCW, so this is of particular interest for me.
IF i did bring a knife to a gunfight i did make sure that all my affairs were in order first.
The only way this could work favorably for the knife wielder is if he could close the distance enough to use the knife without getting shot. My first move would be to gain enough control of the gun hand to be able to direct it away from myself and others. After that...poke him in the vitals...
The only way this could work favorably for the knife wielder is if he could close the distance enough to use the knife without getting shot. My first move would be to gain enough control of the gun hand to be able to direct it away from myself and others. After that...poke him in the vitals...
Fulcrum of Evil
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Bad move. The eye contact is there so he's looking at you when you come up out of his FOV. Focusing on the gun is more likely to get you killed, though - you're basically ignoring the dangerous part. If you can get a straight arm grab on the gun, though, you can torque with your whole spine against his wrist. Of your limited options, this is at least somewhat likely to result in survival.
well, yeah. Of course, close enough to grab the gun is close enough to have a real chance at coming out the other side with a pulse. See, there are two things in your favor: first, guns only shoot in one direction, so controlling that direction is a big bonus. second, with any luck, the GM will focus too much on using his gun and not try anything else, like hitting you. Given my druthers, yeah, I'll take cover and shoot the GM, but I don't always get them.
collateral
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I would take a blackjack/sap/slapjack over a knife any day. The only question is the legality of those in your area. If you dont know what they are, look em up.
Fulcrum of Evil
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oh yes, definitely. I'll take a lights out hit over a (eventually) mortal wound with a knife any day. Even better if I'm some other place.
Your kidding I hope?
Trained in knife work usually bad guys are self trained IMHO, I also do not fear martial artists. My street work training took them out as well, again most bad guys do not have any ability to study and excel at anything.(More than likely why they are thieves in the first place) Sure there are exceptions but the odds are very, very, slim of meeting them.Just my observations.All the Martial artists are going to scream at my statements but ask them how many of them are THEIVES?
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