So the main reason why some special forces are using 45 ACP handguns is mainly....
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Some special forces will do all kinds of things. I believe our guys are pretty much all using 9mm pistols, more Sigs for the Navy and typical Berettas for the Army guys.
The only ones I know of who are actually using any .45 is the Marine group, and I don't know if they're actually using them or if they've just got some.
The only ones I know of who are actually using any .45 is the Marine group, and I don't know if they're actually using them or if they've just got some.
SharpsDressedMan
member
It is easier, and less cumbersome, to suppress a 9mm weapon. The .45 requires bigger/heavier suppressors to achieve the same level of suppression as a 9mm, so the balance of size, weight, and sound suppression are taken into consideration when choosing a 9mm over a .45. In other words, the 9mm might be a little handier to carry and use.
xx7grant7x
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Most all 147 grain 9mm rounds are inherently subsonic too...
burrhead
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In 1989 I worked for three months on a movie shoot in Houston in which the production company used off duty HPD officers for security. I became pretty friendly with an old school flat foot that carried a 6’ S&W N frame in .45 Colt. I asked him why he carried such a heavy weapon and he answered that when he shot someone, they dropped like a sack of potatoes, game over. Probably a little bravado in his statement but it illustrates a point. A big bullet in the right spot takes care of business better than a small one.
Harold Mayo
Member
I doubt that there's a whole lot of use of suppressed .45 ACP pistols, despite what movies might depict and military fanboys suggest. Long guns rule the roost for everything.
The main reasons some US Special Forces (US Army Green Berets) use .45 ACP handguns are:
1. They are more first-shot accurate when using the tweaked SA 1911's commonly carried. In other words...better trigger and sights than found on more commonly issue weapons like the M9, M11, etc. This translates into better & faster practical hits.
2. They are available and some guys with long experience on the platform prefer them. Thousands of invested hours of practice makes folks loath to change guns.
3. The caliber is adequate...even with FMJ.
It is rare for anyone to carry a can on a pistol while assaulting or conducting patrol missions. Sentry & Dog removal are about the only contingency uses for carrying the suppressor. Nobody is going to screw up their Primary to Secondary transition drill by breaching a structure with a difficult to draw, extra long pistol carried in a slow holster...nor ride around in a vehicle configured that way. The pistol suppressor is a screw-driver you pull out your tool kit only when you encounter a particular kind of screw.
4. In all the years since it was first fielded to USSOCOM, I've seen a Mk23 H&K carried by only one or two operators. One of those was a NSW cat who just preferred the pistol for its accuracy (carried without suppressor mounted).
Very few US SOF (Special Operations Forces from all Services) carry .45 ACP these days. Some Army SF (Green Beret) elements do. Some Marine SOF and Reconnaissance elements do.
These days, most SOF action guys (Army, Navy, Marine, or Air Force) are issued and carry M9s, SIGs, or Glocks...in either 9mm or .40 S&W flavors.
And that's the simple truth of the matter.
I carried this .45 ACP weapon in Iraq during my last tour (2010-2011). I didn't shoot anyone with it:
1. They are more first-shot accurate when using the tweaked SA 1911's commonly carried. In other words...better trigger and sights than found on more commonly issue weapons like the M9, M11, etc. This translates into better & faster practical hits.
2. They are available and some guys with long experience on the platform prefer them. Thousands of invested hours of practice makes folks loath to change guns.
3. The caliber is adequate...even with FMJ.
It is rare for anyone to carry a can on a pistol while assaulting or conducting patrol missions. Sentry & Dog removal are about the only contingency uses for carrying the suppressor. Nobody is going to screw up their Primary to Secondary transition drill by breaching a structure with a difficult to draw, extra long pistol carried in a slow holster...nor ride around in a vehicle configured that way. The pistol suppressor is a screw-driver you pull out your tool kit only when you encounter a particular kind of screw.
4. In all the years since it was first fielded to USSOCOM, I've seen a Mk23 H&K carried by only one or two operators. One of those was a NSW cat who just preferred the pistol for its accuracy (carried without suppressor mounted).
Very few US SOF (Special Operations Forces from all Services) carry .45 ACP these days. Some Army SF (Green Beret) elements do. Some Marine SOF and Reconnaissance elements do.
These days, most SOF action guys (Army, Navy, Marine, or Air Force) are issued and carry M9s, SIGs, or Glocks...in either 9mm or .40 S&W flavors.
And that's the simple truth of the matter.
I carried this .45 ACP weapon in Iraq during my last tour (2010-2011). I didn't shoot anyone with it:
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Yes and no...they are barely subsonic (~1000 fps) out of a 4" barrel...I would say transonic...in some atmospheric conditions/altitude (and out of barrels a bit longer than 4") they could end up being supersonic.....
Standard 45 ACP 230 gr. is a ~850 fps cartridge (5" barrel)..."solidly" subsonic in any situation.....
The main reasons some US Special Forces (US Army Green Berets) use .45 ACP handguns are:
1. They are more first-shot accurate when using the tweaked SA 1911's commonly carried. In other words...better trigger and sights than found on more commonly issue weapons like the M9, M11, etc. This translates into better & faster practical hits.
2. They are available and some guys with long experience on the platform prefer them. Thousands of invested hours of practice makes folks loath to change guns.
3. The caliber is adequate...even with FMJ.
It is rare for anyone to carry a can on a pistol while assaulting or conducting patrol missions. Sentry & Dog removal are about the only contingency uses for carrying the suppressor. Nobody is going to screw up their Primary to Secondary transition drill by breaching a structure with a difficult to draw, extra long pistol carried in a slow holster...nor ride around in a vehicle configured that way. The pistol suppressor is a screw-driver you pull out your tool kit only when you encounter a particular kind of screw.
4. In all the years since it was first fielded to USSOCOM, I've seen a Mk23 H&K carried by only one or two operators. One of those was a NSW cat who just preferred the pistol for its accuracy (carried without suppressor mounted).
Very few US SOF (Special Operations Forces from all Services) carry .45 ACP these days. Some Army SF (Green Beret) elements do. Some Marine SOF and Reconnaissance elements do.
These days, most SOF action guys (Army, Navy, Marine, or Air Force) are issued and carry M9s, SIGs, or Glocks...in either 9mm or .40 S&W flavors.
And that's the simple truth of the matter.
I carried this .45 ACP weapon in Iraq during my last tour (2010-2011). I didn't shoot anyone with it:
Maybe derailing a bit, but why the 9mm (or .40 S&W).
I ask because I wonder how much their flatter trajectories have to do with it. For home defense in my hosue it's unlikely I'd have a shot much more than 7 yards, my shooting range doesn't even go over 25 yards, and if I ever shot someone at 50 yards I'd probably have to go to jail.
So the flatter trajectory doesn't really matter to me so much. And with my hands grip size isn't a problem.
But if their popularity is for other reasons I'd like to know.
mdauben
Member
IIRC that was the original reason for the 9mm 147gr loading, as a subsonic round for suppressed weapons.
Out of curiosity I've gone to a few different web sites promoting their suppressors. One in particular had test data from a multitude of calibers and bullet brands within a caliber.
Generally speaking (as there were some variations) the larger the bullet the louder the unmuffled sound was. The suppressors reduced the sound, but pretty much relative to the bore. 45s were still louder than 9s. etc.
I was surprised how quite loud they still were. 120 db suppressed range
Generally speaking (as there were some variations) the larger the bullet the louder the unmuffled sound was. The suppressors reduced the sound, but pretty much relative to the bore. 45s were still louder than 9s. etc.
I was surprised how quite loud they still were. 120 db suppressed range
Sheepdog1968
Member
Special forces also use sling shots and blowguns (I'm just repeating what someone else once said). I wouldn't read too much into their weapon selection and rational.
Supersonic is much closer to 1100 FPS than 1000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound
Apparently it's over 1100 feet per second, give or take depending on elevation, air temperature, and apparently humidity.
Personally, were I to be part of a small group, doing things away from support (the definition of special forces includes long range, especially in enemy-held territory), I would without a doubt select weapons that allowed me to carry the most amount of ammunition easiest. That means take the pistol that holds 15-18 rounds per magazine, not seven or eight, to hell with bravado, to hell with machismo, and to hell with braggadocio.
I would expect everyone to carry the same secondary weapon, given the lack of support that is inherent in special types of operations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound
Apparently it's over 1100 feet per second, give or take depending on elevation, air temperature, and apparently humidity.
Personally, were I to be part of a small group, doing things away from support (the definition of special forces includes long range, especially in enemy-held territory), I would without a doubt select weapons that allowed me to carry the most amount of ammunition easiest. That means take the pistol that holds 15-18 rounds per magazine, not seven or eight, to hell with bravado, to hell with machismo, and to hell with braggadocio.
I would expect everyone to carry the same secondary weapon, given the lack of support that is inherent in special types of operations.
My brother in law is a Ranger, has been "over there" about five times now. He says Rangers still use the M9 but several Rangers that he has seen who have "moved up" to bigger and better things (Delta? Green Berets? He didn't say) have .45s of different varieties.
45_auto
Member
A friend of mine's son is a Delta Operator. Every time he comes home on leave, usually once during the summer and at Christmas, he brings the 1911 he carries and a couple of thousand rounds of Lake City Match .45. We spend a weekend shooting it up, and he has no use for the brass! 
I've never asked him why he carries a specific gun, just figured that was what he liked best.
I've never asked him why he carries a specific gun, just figured that was what he liked best.
ISO1600
Member
i worked with a USAF PJ unit in okinawa that had (HAD- i dont know how much they used/carried them) a large number of 1911's in their armory.
Flatter trajectories have nothing to do caliber selection (as you noted). SOF handguns are carried as a backup to a long gun, which is used for 98% of engagements.
9mm usage is near universal in SOF because the military supply system provides plentiful amounts of it and most of today's issue weapons are 9mm [M9, M11 (SIG 228), SIG 226, , Glock 17/19]. .45 ACP is less available these days, which limits the amount of training that can be conducted. It's easier to get .45 when already downrange and less so when trying to build an annual home-station range training plan using annual STRAC allocations.
Another unit that formerly used custom 1911s went to Glock 22s a few years ago. A lot of old timers in that unit were resistant to the idea, but several years of practical use with the weapon & caliber in combat apparently proved its utility. For the most part, they like the weapon, the comparable terminal results, the increased magazine capacity, and the enhanced barrier penetration (compared to .45 ACP).
Some Army SF ODAs elect to go with .45 and have every man carry a 1911 in lieu of the already issued M9. But it's an "All or None" common choice. The guys are rarely afforded the opportunity to individually pick and choose what they carry. Specialized versions of a common issued platform...yes. Personally owned exotic bullet launchers...no. Shooting drills, personal kit, and TTPs are organized around a training framework based upon commonality of weaponry, accessories, optics, and ammunition.
DoD still maintains sizable stocks of 1911A1s available for use by selected units...usually drawn from depots and then customized in-house as required.
I've never seen anyone in SF using a blowgun or a slingshot (except as an individual screwing around with a personally owned item), but I know a legendary SF Team Sergeant who actually shot flaming arrows (from a personal hunting bow) against insurgents in Iraq during a firefight. Both sides were utterly amazed.
Generally, .45 use today is by exception with about the same amount of folks using .45 as use .40...and everyone else using 9mm (about 95% of US SOF).
All three calibers will do the job and are accurate enough. It's not that big of a deal. Pistols are marginal stoppers in almost any duty caliber. Shot placement (skill) is the deciding factor with combat handguns. Followed by penetration. Both of those distantly followed by caliber, bullet, & platform. Naturally, expanding bullets tend to work better than FMJ. My $.02
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maddy345
Member
These days, most SOF action guys (Army, Navy, Marine, or Air Force) are issued and carry M9s, SIGs, or Glocks...in either 9mm or .40 S&W flavors.
.40 S&W is not a NATO approved round. It isn't carried by any of our overseas troops. When the USCG deploys overseas they have to go back to the M9 from the P229 DAK in .40 just for that reason.
.40 S&W is not a NATO approved round. It isn't carried by any of our overseas troops. When the USCG deploys overseas they have to go back to the M9 from the P229 DAK in .40 just for that reason.
True
Not True.
Certain US SOF combat units roll with standard .40 S&W weapons.
When I've wanted to remind myself what SF or NSW folks carry, I've usually just looked left and right at my guys and then confirmed by looking down at my own holster. Know what I mean?
And ain't that a crock?
Actually that swap is not about NATO strictures or interoperability (which these days we care less and less about). Their .40 vs. 9mm switch is directly related to who runs their current mission (Dept of Homeland Security for peacetime LEO enforcement or the Dept of Navy for wartime deployments). When the USCG is involved in domestic law enforcement, they use their .40 SIGs (with expanding ammo) just like any other US LEO organization. When they combat deploy, they are usually OPCON to the Navy and must adhere to the same Hague Accords observed by the rest of the US military services...and thus wind up having to use 9mm FMJ. Lunacy.
They could of course simply use .40 FMJ, but then they'd have to buy it and have difficulties resourcing training ammo as the Theater ASPs stock little (if any) .40 ball ammo. I also suspect that there is a huge Gordian Knot of red tape involved in transfer/purchase/transport of CONUS DHS ammo into the OCONUS DoD DODIC ammo management system. It's just infinitely simpler (and cheaper) to go with what is already provided for all deployed military units (i.e., 9mm).
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rklessdriver
Member
The few SF types that use 45's, do so because they can and because they want to. Those guys have all the $$$ in the world and can carry whatever gear they want to. Just the perks of being one of them.....
When you look at the role of a pistol in the context of Military operations.... You'll realize pistols are not really that important.
In the regular Army and Marine Corps, Officers and SNCO's mainly get pistols. None of the ones that I served with in combat with actually ever had to use it - Mainly because they all checked out M16A4s.
I do know a Lt that tested out how good his pistol lanyard was when his M9 fell out of his drop leg holster and was drug under a HMMMV for about 10mins before they figured out what "that banging noise was....."
Machine gunners and vehicle crewman (some) get pistols as a last ditch weapon in case their primary (machine gun or armored vehicle) becomes disabled - but face it.... if you couldn't get the job done with an M2, MK19, M240, SAW, Bradley, Amtrac or Tank your likely not going to accomplish too much additional with a pistol (dosen't matter if its 9mm or 45).
Honestly IMO military pistols are just something else to get lost and maybe use if you had exhausted everything else, couldn't retreat and just had to "go down fighting"....
Now civilian use of a pistol is something entirely different. Maybe that's why so many civilians gawk and over analyze what the military carries.... but context is everything and you have to understand the roles for pistols in the military and civilian life are a little different.
Civilians rely on pistols as a first line of defense because they are small, easy to carry and sufficient for most threats you'll face.
Will
When you look at the role of a pistol in the context of Military operations.... You'll realize pistols are not really that important.
In the regular Army and Marine Corps, Officers and SNCO's mainly get pistols. None of the ones that I served with in combat with actually ever had to use it - Mainly because they all checked out M16A4s.
I do know a Lt that tested out how good his pistol lanyard was when his M9 fell out of his drop leg holster and was drug under a HMMMV for about 10mins before they figured out what "that banging noise was....."
Machine gunners and vehicle crewman (some) get pistols as a last ditch weapon in case their primary (machine gun or armored vehicle) becomes disabled - but face it.... if you couldn't get the job done with an M2, MK19, M240, SAW, Bradley, Amtrac or Tank your likely not going to accomplish too much additional with a pistol (dosen't matter if its 9mm or 45).
Honestly IMO military pistols are just something else to get lost and maybe use if you had exhausted everything else, couldn't retreat and just had to "go down fighting"....
Now civilian use of a pistol is something entirely different. Maybe that's why so many civilians gawk and over analyze what the military carries.... but context is everything and you have to understand the roles for pistols in the military and civilian life are a little different.
Civilians rely on pistols as a first line of defense because they are small, easy to carry and sufficient for most threats you'll face.
Will
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