romulus
Member
How about a democratic republic...I mean, they ARE a republic as of now
sobering news
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erem
Member
Again, these are the actions of the Islamist hardliners in control of the Iranian government. There was a large candlelight vigil in Tehran after 9/11, one of few in the Muslim world. Many of the youth of the country are pro-American. Offering the people aid shouldn't hurt their views.
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Ryder
Member
Dawn
AL QUDS, Dec 21: Israel is considering an operation to destroy the nuclear capabilities of Iran, now regarded as the Jewish state's number one enemy, Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz was quoted as saying on Sunday.
If a decision is made to destroy Iran's nuclear capability, "the necessary steps will be taken so that Iranian citizens will not be harmed," the Haaretz daily cited Mofaz as telling Israel radio's Persian service last week.
--
There's more to the article, It goes on to say that 4 days prior to these statements Iran signed additional protocol of the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty which opens the way for snap UN inspections of suspect sites.
I don't see anything wrong with Iranian logic in refusing help from Israel. I don't know of any country that would act friendly toward their self-proclaimed number one enemy other than the way the United States has with China.
AL QUDS, Dec 21: Israel is considering an operation to destroy the nuclear capabilities of Iran, now regarded as the Jewish state's number one enemy, Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz was quoted as saying on Sunday.
If a decision is made to destroy Iran's nuclear capability, "the necessary steps will be taken so that Iranian citizens will not be harmed," the Haaretz daily cited Mofaz as telling Israel radio's Persian service last week.
--
There's more to the article, It goes on to say that 4 days prior to these statements Iran signed additional protocol of the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty which opens the way for snap UN inspections of suspect sites.
I don't see anything wrong with Iranian logic in refusing help from Israel. I don't know of any country that would act friendly toward their self-proclaimed number one enemy other than the way the United States has with China.
There is, and always will be, enmity between these two groups of people. Unless you fell off a turnip truck in front of where you live yesterday, as apparently Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter did, you should understand this. Just as the US federal debt will never be paid in full, neither will the Israelites ever reconcile with the rest of the Middle Eastern peoples, at least not on a permanent basis.
DigitalWarrior
Member
I am sorry for my intemporate outburst. I think that this thread was getting unconfortable in part because of me.
I just know that the best way to erase emnity is to humanize your enemy. If a couple of people (The hated Jews) showed compassion towards individual Iranians, then those who recieved compassion would understand that not all Jews are bad.
I think the leaders of IRAN know this, so they don't let it happen. They know if the Jews aren't their scapegoat (clever jewish refernce, ha ha)then the people will look for who is at fault for their circumstance.
All eyes would turn to Tehran.
I just know that the best way to erase emnity is to humanize your enemy. If a couple of people (The hated Jews) showed compassion towards individual Iranians, then those who recieved compassion would understand that not all Jews are bad.
I think the leaders of IRAN know this, so they don't let it happen. They know if the Jews aren't their scapegoat (clever jewish refernce, ha ha)then the people will look for who is at fault for their circumstance.
All eyes would turn to Tehran.
w4rma
member
Some folks need to calm down, because they sound just like the Iranian leadership.
Do you folks really want to make this thing into a Muslim vs. Jew vs. Christian battle? Yes, there are many people who do want this, but do *you*?
Iran is ruled by religious fundamentalists. They are **extremely** conservative and **extremely** right-wing. There are liberal elements in Iran trying to moderate their leadership. IMHO, the best thing to do is to support those moderating elements and condemn the far-right, fundamentalist nut jobs that rule the place.
Do you folks really want to make this thing into a Muslim vs. Jew vs. Christian battle? Yes, there are many people who do want this, but do *you*?
Iran is ruled by religious fundamentalists. They are **extremely** conservative and **extremely** right-wing. There are liberal elements in Iran trying to moderate their leadership. IMHO, the best thing to do is to support those moderating elements and condemn the far-right, fundamentalist nut jobs that rule the place.
Leatherneck
Member
I couldn't tell whether w4rma was referring to Iran or the USA!
TC
TFL Survivor
MicroBalrog
member
w4rma - I agree with you. Again.
Hutch
Member
w4rma, there was another thread in which the term "Liberal" was analyzed at some length, especially as it regards to gun control. Care to share with us how the Iranian theocracy could be described as "conservative", as we use the term in the U.S.A.? Seems like a pejorative, the way some people throw around the term "racist" or "Nazi" to denounce that with which they disagree.
w4rma
member
Gun control has no place in liberal ideology, IMHO. American liberalism is pro-personal freedom/libertarian on personal freedoms. Liberals tend towards opposing efforts to dictate personal morality to people through the law.
Remember, Brady is a Republican.
IMHO, gun control is an urban vs. rural issue. Republicans have, recently, gotten the majority of their support from rural America, while Democrats have, recently, gotten the majority of their support from urban America.
Democrats in rural areas tend away from gun control and Republicans in urban areas tend to support gun control.
Remember, Brady is a Republican.
IMHO, gun control is an urban vs. rural issue. Republicans have, recently, gotten the majority of their support from rural America, while Democrats have, recently, gotten the majority of their support from urban America.
Democrats in rural areas tend away from gun control and Republicans in urban areas tend to support gun control.
greyhound
Member
How the heck does a discussion of Iran/Israel evolve into American liberal/conservative?
But since it did: I often say there is a difference between liberals and leftists. W4MA your definition of liberal sounds fine by me (think JFK as an example) but what I see in today's Democratic party are leftists.
Give me a Democrat who fits your definition and I would vote for him over Bush.
However, I cannot see JFK leaving his church over a bike path. Or threatening to "beat the s*** out of somebody" in a press covered speech.
But since it did: I often say there is a difference between liberals and leftists. W4MA your definition of liberal sounds fine by me (think JFK as an example) but what I see in today's Democratic party are leftists.
Give me a Democrat who fits your definition and I would vote for him over Bush.
However, I cannot see JFK leaving his church over a bike path. Or threatening to "beat the s*** out of somebody" in a press covered speech.
w4rma
member
Here is some context, aka "bike path". IMHO, Dr. Dean is an extremely honorable and moral individual. He is also a devout Christian.
…
Dean is, without a doubt, an odd vessel for the quasi-religious fervor he has inspired. He almost never mentions God in his stump speeches and he rarely goes to church himself. Nevertheless, his rhetoric -- like his campaign structure -- is deeply grounded in the social practices of a ranch of radical Protestantism whose tenets still wield power in the structures of Vermont's government. The Pilgrims who gave America its foundational governing documents and ideas -- ideas that Dean now routinely references -- created a society based partly on the anti-authoritarian religious principles of Congregationalism, their religion (and, since the early '80s, Dean's).
Congregationalism, the dominant religion of colonial and early federal life, had by the 20th century become an obscure New England denomination about as relevant to modern life as covered bridges. Yet the legacy of the Congregationalists -- and their Unitarian descendants -- is one of the most powerful forces in the history of the American North. It was Congregationalists who landed the Mayflower on Plymouth Rock in 1620. Their descendants founded America's elite colleges, such as Harvard and Yale, and some of its most liberal ones, such as Oberlin and Amherst. Where the South bred agrarian populists and Baptist revivals, the North churned out Unitarian and Congregationalist ministers.
Dean's own conversion to Congregationalism was a more mundane political affair. He'd been christened as a Catholic and was raised Episcopalian. But he converted to the local Vermont religion as a consequence of his battle to make over the shoreline. "I had a big fight with a local Episcopal church about 25 years ago over the bike path," he told This Week with George Stephanopoulos in September. "We were trying to get the bike path built. They had control of a mile and a half of railroad bed, and they decided they would pursue a property-rights suit to refuse to allow the bike path to be developed." Dean eventually talked church leaders out of the lawsuit, recalls Sharp, but other railroad neighbors refused to budge and litigated the case all the way to U.S. Supreme Court.
The effort to restore the Lake Champlain shoreline was a turning point for Dean in his transformation from New Yorker to Vermonter: At the same moment, he both adopted the local faith and became involved in local politics. To this day, Dean remains devoted to the idea of local freedoms, local governing solutions and local control. He supports the assault-weapons ban, but other than that, prefers each state to draft its own gun-control laws -- a position that's earned him an "A" rating from the National Rifle Association. He signed the court-ordered civil-unions law in Vermont -- indeed, one lesbian couple in the suit that led to the law belong to the same Congregationalist church as Dean -- but does not favor any federal law on marriage. He's ferociously opposed to unfunded mandates that make impositions on state governments, such as the No Child Left Behind Act.
As Dean reflects traditions of Yankee independence in governance, he also reflects it in the organization of his campaign, in which local directors have an almost unprecedented autonomy. In New Hampshire, the field operation is using a theory of "relationships-based organizing" that tries to turn every committed supporter into a field operative, says former Seacoast coordinator Myles Duffy. "The rhetoric matches the structure of the campaign," notes Mathew Gross, Dean's blogger in chief and speechwriter. "It goes back to the fundamental unit of democracy, which is the town-hall meeting." (Or, in the case of the Dean campaign, the Meetup.)
It all comes out of the Vermont political tradition centered on the small town. "Congregational government puts power in the hands of the people to determine what they want at a scale that people can relate to," says John Nutting, a Congregationalist minister in Vermont who has written a history of Dean's Burlington church. "It was prized by both the church and by the secular structures of the state of Vermont, so that in many ways a similar pattern of participation existed both in the church and the civil society. Vermont hasn't abandoned it. We're a state of very small communities."
…
http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/10/franke-ruta-g.html
I pay very close attention to the Dean campaign and I haven't heard anything about a "beat the s*** out of somebody" quote. I expect that one is probably hearsay.
…
Dean is, without a doubt, an odd vessel for the quasi-religious fervor he has inspired. He almost never mentions God in his stump speeches and he rarely goes to church himself. Nevertheless, his rhetoric -- like his campaign structure -- is deeply grounded in the social practices of a ranch of radical Protestantism whose tenets still wield power in the structures of Vermont's government. The Pilgrims who gave America its foundational governing documents and ideas -- ideas that Dean now routinely references -- created a society based partly on the anti-authoritarian religious principles of Congregationalism, their religion (and, since the early '80s, Dean's).
Congregationalism, the dominant religion of colonial and early federal life, had by the 20th century become an obscure New England denomination about as relevant to modern life as covered bridges. Yet the legacy of the Congregationalists -- and their Unitarian descendants -- is one of the most powerful forces in the history of the American North. It was Congregationalists who landed the Mayflower on Plymouth Rock in 1620. Their descendants founded America's elite colleges, such as Harvard and Yale, and some of its most liberal ones, such as Oberlin and Amherst. Where the South bred agrarian populists and Baptist revivals, the North churned out Unitarian and Congregationalist ministers.
Dean's own conversion to Congregationalism was a more mundane political affair. He'd been christened as a Catholic and was raised Episcopalian. But he converted to the local Vermont religion as a consequence of his battle to make over the shoreline. "I had a big fight with a local Episcopal church about 25 years ago over the bike path," he told This Week with George Stephanopoulos in September. "We were trying to get the bike path built. They had control of a mile and a half of railroad bed, and they decided they would pursue a property-rights suit to refuse to allow the bike path to be developed." Dean eventually talked church leaders out of the lawsuit, recalls Sharp, but other railroad neighbors refused to budge and litigated the case all the way to U.S. Supreme Court.
The effort to restore the Lake Champlain shoreline was a turning point for Dean in his transformation from New Yorker to Vermonter: At the same moment, he both adopted the local faith and became involved in local politics. To this day, Dean remains devoted to the idea of local freedoms, local governing solutions and local control. He supports the assault-weapons ban, but other than that, prefers each state to draft its own gun-control laws -- a position that's earned him an "A" rating from the National Rifle Association. He signed the court-ordered civil-unions law in Vermont -- indeed, one lesbian couple in the suit that led to the law belong to the same Congregationalist church as Dean -- but does not favor any federal law on marriage. He's ferociously opposed to unfunded mandates that make impositions on state governments, such as the No Child Left Behind Act.
As Dean reflects traditions of Yankee independence in governance, he also reflects it in the organization of his campaign, in which local directors have an almost unprecedented autonomy. In New Hampshire, the field operation is using a theory of "relationships-based organizing" that tries to turn every committed supporter into a field operative, says former Seacoast coordinator Myles Duffy. "The rhetoric matches the structure of the campaign," notes Mathew Gross, Dean's blogger in chief and speechwriter. "It goes back to the fundamental unit of democracy, which is the town-hall meeting." (Or, in the case of the Dean campaign, the Meetup.)
It all comes out of the Vermont political tradition centered on the small town. "Congregational government puts power in the hands of the people to determine what they want at a scale that people can relate to," says John Nutting, a Congregationalist minister in Vermont who has written a history of Dean's Burlington church. "It was prized by both the church and by the secular structures of the state of Vermont, so that in many ways a similar pattern of participation existed both in the church and the civil society. Vermont hasn't abandoned it. We're a state of very small communities."
…
http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/10/franke-ruta-g.html
I pay very close attention to the Dean campaign and I haven't heard anything about a "beat the s*** out of somebody" quote. I expect that one is probably hearsay.
rock jock
Member
Yep, I agree. There are in fact a LOT of moderate Muslims in Iran. They are the young folks who are tired of the I-ah-told-ya and his clan. Folks under 25 currently comprise something like 50-60% of the population (partly thanks to Saddam). They cannot hold them back forever.
Oh, get over it, will you, with these constant slams against conservatives. As transparent as your bias is, you might as well just accuse the religious leaders of being Republicans.
rock jock
Member
Well, you apparently set the bar pretty dang low.
w4rma
member
I set the bar very high, actually.
Do you have no problem with extremist ideolouges? I do not trust extremist ideologues on either side of the fence.
rock jock
Member
Well, Dean should fit in nicely. He only believes in what the pollsters tell him.
Glock Glockler
Member
w4rma,
Out of curiosity, how do you know that Dean is more and devoutly religous? He might market himself as such, but how do you know what he's really like away from the camera, do you know him personally?
rock jock,
Are Amreican movies publically banned in Iran because thy're corrupting? Are women allowed to go out in public without those stupid headscarves? Are men allowed to go topless or even wear shortsleaves?
I dont exactly know what "rightwing" means but they are extremely conservative, and I know many American fundamentalists that are not too different from those guys except that they're Christian instead of Muslim.
Out of curiosity, how do you know that Dean is more and devoutly religous? He might market himself as such, but how do you know what he's really like away from the camera, do you know him personally?
rock jock,
Are Amreican movies publically banned in Iran because thy're corrupting? Are women allowed to go out in public without those stupid headscarves? Are men allowed to go topless or even wear shortsleaves?
I dont exactly know what "rightwing" means but they are extremely conservative, and I know many American fundamentalists that are not too different from those guys except that they're Christian instead of Muslim.
Waitone
Member
Dean's profession of allegiance to Jesus will not flush well in South Carolina.
fix
Member
Mmmmhmmm...
By your fruits, ye shall be known. Dean is whatever he feels like he needs to be at the moment. To those of us not blinded by a paranoid hatred towards all things related to the current administration, Dean is a model of inconsistency...or as we say down south...wishy washy. Not a good quality to look for in a leader.
On the Iranian disaster...
Terrible business, both the quake and the political aftermath.
MicroBalrog
member
ROFLMAO!
"With stereotypes, the only thing that often matters is whose stereo gets typed.
Wow, this may be the worst case of thread drift I've ever seen.
Clear from earthquake in Iran to Dean's religious views ... wow.
Y'all might want to consider taking the discussion about Dean somewhere else.
Oh, and ease off a bit on the insults please.
pax
Clear from earthquake in Iran to Dean's religious views ... wow.
Y'all might want to consider taking the discussion about Dean somewhere else.
Oh, and ease off a bit on the insults please.
pax
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