Some see Fresno's DUI crackdown as a model

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Some see Fresno's DUI crackdown as a model

By Larry Copeland, USA TODAY

FRESNO, Calif. — It's a Saturday night in Fresno, which means another "bar sting" at another nightclub. This one is at Crossroads, a red-and-white themed bar on North Cedar Street popular with bikers. As closing time nears, undercover police stake out the parking lot and look for departing customers who appear to be drunk.

One officer observes a man walking unsteadily as he leaves the bar. When he gets in his SUV and starts to drive off, other officers swoop down on him. The officers find a loaded Glock handgun in the center console. The man's friend, who owns the SUV, walks over to show the police his concealed weapons permit. But he's been drinking, too, and the permit is void if he's intoxicated.

They arrest him, too.

Fresno may be the toughest city in the nation on drunken drivers. An intoxicated motorist is more likely to run into a police checkpoint in this city of 461,000 than anywhere else in the USA, according to Fresno police. Police sneak into the driveways of convicted drunken drivers to plant Global Positioning System tracking devices on their cars and search their homes for evidence they've been drinking.

Fresno's hard-as-nails approach to drunken driving comes at a time when some police, prosecutors, probation officials and traffic safety advocates are calling for stepped-up efforts to reduce the death toll from drunken driving. After declining steadily for nearly 20 years, the number of people killed each year in alcohol-related crashes leveled off — at 16,000 to 17,000 — in the mid-1990s and hasn't dropped significantly since.

Most people who drive drunk don't get caught. Only about 1 in 50 alcohol-impaired drivers is actually arrested, says Susan Ferguson, senior vice president for research at the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, a non-profit research organization supported by auto insurance companies. "What it amounts to is an awful lot of people who are driving impaired in this country who have no fear of being arrested," Ferguson says.

Many of those who do get arrested don't stop driving drunk. About a third of all drivers arrested for drunken driving are repeat offenders, according to Mothers Against Drunk Driving. The group says 50% to 75% of drivers whose licenses are suspended or revoked for DUI continue to drive without a license.

Those numbers are unacceptable to some fed-up police, probation officers and prosecutors, who are using increasingly aggressive tactics to reduce drunken driving:

•In Nassau County, N.Y., on Long Island, District Attorney Kathleen Rice won a rare murder conviction last month in a drunken-driving case. Insurance salesman Martin Heidgen, 25, was convicted of second-degree murder in the July 2005 deaths of Katie Flynn, 7, and Stanley Rabinowitz, 59, who was driving the limousine that Heidgen struck head-on. Heidgen had been driving the wrong way on Meadowbrook Parkway. Katie and her family were being driven home from a wedding. Heidgen, who faces a maximum prison sentence of 25 years to life, will be sentenced later this month. His attorney says he will appeal.

"We would hope that this verdict sends a message that if you drink and drive and kill someone, you will be prosecuted for murder," Rice said after the conviction. She no longer allows plea deals in drunken-driving cases and plans to use a state grant to buy high-tech alcohol-detecting ankle bracelets for convicted drunken drivers who are required to stay sober as part of their probation.

The Riverside County Probation Department in California this year began tracking up to 130 repeat offenders with a 2-½ ounce tracking device armed with GPS technology. The device, which can be worn as a bracelet or anklet, alerts authorities in less than one minute when a convicted DUI offender enters a bar, says Michael DeGasperin, director of the department. Many of the felony DUI offenders in the cities of Temecula, Murrieta and Perris already wear a similar device, a Secure Continuous Remote Alcohol Monitor (SCRAM) ankle bracelet that measures the alcohol in a person's system by collecting minute sweat samples.

"Both are good deterrents in trying to out-fox the fox," DeGasperin says. "We want it to be a little intrusive and Big Brother-ish to get them to raise the white flag and come to us to seek help before they're involved in another accident."


•More than 30 states have enacted additional penalties for so-called "high-risk" drunken drivers, those with a blood-alcohol content of .15% to .20%. The legal limit in all 50 states is .08%. Twenty-eight states assign prosecutors to focus on drunken driving. Five states — Maine, North Carolina, Utah, Virginia and Wisconsin — have lowered the maximum blood-alcohol content for repeat offenders to varying limits below .08%.

Changing the culture

No place has gone as far as Fresno. Its crackdown on drunken driving and other traffic violations began when Jerry Dyer, who has been on the police force since 1979, became chief in 2001 and realized that more people in his city were being killed in automobile collisions than in homicides.

"Back in 2002, we had 43 murders in our city but we had 52 people die in fatal collisions," he says. "We know the individuals killed in homicides are generally associated with a certain lifestyle or they're in domestic situations. But the individuals being killed in traffic collisions are people like you and me, minding their own business, when somebody drunk runs a red light and kills them.

"I vowed at that time to change the driving culture in Fresno."

He hired 92 new officers, boosted revenue from traffic fines by $5 million a year and cut drunken-driving deaths. Fresno also began warning those convicted of DUIs that, while they were on probation, GPS devices might be attached to their cars.

In September, MADD gave Fresno police its "Outstanding Law Enforcement Agency" award. "I wish other departments throughout the nation would take the initiative to do what Fresno is doing," says Glynn Birch, MADD's national president. "For the past 10 years, the numbers (of drunken-driving fatalities) have plateaued. We need to re-energize the nation."

Last year the International Association of Chiefs of Police recognized the department for having the best impaired-driving program in the nation. Fresno police officers attend law enforcement seminars where they tell other cops what they're doing here.

The Fresno experiment might be difficult for some police departments to duplicate at a time when cops around the country are being stretched thin by federally-mandated homeland security duties, increases in violent crime and, in some rural and small-town areas, the first-time appearance of gangs.

But research has shown that police departments that strictly enforce traffic laws make an impact on other crime, says John Grant, manager of the division of state and provincial police at the IACP.

"In some agencies, it's not viewed as fighting real crime," he says. "It's not the glamorous thing. But one thing that virtually all criminals have in common is use of an automobile, whether it's in the planning, the perpetrating or the escape from their crime. And very often, they don't pay attention to traffic laws."

A few miles from the bar sting operation, Fresno police are working yet another DUI checkpoint. This one, at Ventura and R Streets, is marked by a large sign telling drivers: "Check Point Ahead. DUI and License." A line of orange cones funnels drivers into two single lanes, where police officers check every third motorist's driver's license and look for signs of intoxication: slurred speech, bloodshot eyes, the smell of alcohol. Many drivers already have their windows down and licenses held up for inspection as they approach the brightly lit checkpoint.

"The word's out in this town," says Detective Mark Van Wyhe, who coordinates the police department's Repeat DUI Offender Program. "They know we're out here."

Dozens of checkpoints

They should. The city ran 94 DUI checkpoints last year, more than any other city in the nation. The checkpoints, at different times and places, are set up on weekends.

Fresno's bar stings generated controversy when police started them last spring. "There were lots of threats, but no legal action," says Capt. Andrew Hall, commander of the police department's Traffic Bureau.

Initially, plainclothes police staked out the inside of bars, watched customers consume too much alcohol, then alerted fellow officers outside, who arrested the drunks as they drove off. To defuse the controversy, the officers were moved to the parking lots of the targeted clubs, Dyer says.

Police also run "courtroom stings," monitoring courtrooms where drivers cited for traffic violations are appearing. In many instances, judges suspend the motorists' licenses. The police officers follow them to their cars and arrest them if they drive off. They also conduct "probation and parole sweeps," searching the homes of convicted drunken drivers for evidence they've been drinking. In some instances, police arrest probationers because other family members have beer cans or liquor bottles in the home.

"We're seeing a real change of attitude," Hall says. "People who are planning on going out drinking are now planning alternative rides home. That's one of the exciting things about what we're doing, is the number of designated drivers we're seeing."

Enforcement or snooping?

When Fresno police launched the bar stings in March, it touched off a public outcry in the press and on talk radio. Fresno Bee columnist Bill McEwen questioned the wisdom of allowing a person who is obviously drunk to drive even a short distance. He said the bar sting "smacks of Big Brother."

Dyer says he modified the sting operations primarily because of concerns about potential police liability. While the stings were temporarily halted, a 35-year-old mother was killed by a driver who'd allegedly gotten drunk at one of the bars where police had conducted a sting. "We reinstated the program the following day," he says. "As a result of the death, the bar operation was widely accepted. The vast majority of restaurant owners and bar owners are supportive" of the modified approach.

McEwen lauded the changes.

But Carrie Fagan-Davis, owner of Fagan's Irish Pub downtown, says she opposes the bar stings whether officers are inside the clubs or in the parking lot.

"It's not the American way to spy on people," says Fagan-Davis, 54. "The police should watch the streets for drunken drivers but don't watch the bars. It's the responsibility of the bar owners to monitor what they serve patrons. Anybody who's in a business of this type needs to be responsible. The last thing I would want is to have it on my conscience that an extra $4 drink caused somebody harm. I look at that as a blood dollar. I don't want it."

Fagan-Davis says her business is about 70% food and 30% alcohol. She says that for St. Patrick's Day this year she made sure patrons had arranged for designated drivers, encouraged them to use hotels and educated her employees on spotting someone who's had too much to drink. She says officials from the state Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control were impressed by her actions.

Bob Pierce, 49, has owned the Crossroads bar, where police set up a parking lot sting operation earlier this month, for six months. He says he is working to improve the bar's image. "We want to clean it up, bring in more older customers," he says.

Pierce says the stings "definitely hurt our business. I'd like to see a better way to do it. I'd like to see a business owners association figure out a better way."

Rogers Smith, a political science professor and civil liberties expert at the University of Pennsylvania School of Law, says the bar stings and surreptitious placing of GPS devices "are aggressive police tactics. They go right up against the boundary of what the police can permissibly do, but they don't cross it. There is nothing that constitutes a violation of a constitutional right or civil liberty."

On sneaking into a driveway to place a GPS tracking device, Smith says the issue is "whether an action to monitor you — whether it's wiretaps, filming, or whatever — invades a reasonable expectation of privacy. For most of us, to have a GPS device put on our car would violate a reasonable expectation of privacy. But you're talking about people who were given warning as a condition of their probation that they were susceptible to this."

The police here are cautious about claiming outright success, but they clearly believe that their aggressive tactics are working. There hasn't been an alcohol-related traffic death since May, says Hall of the Traffic Bureau. There were eight such deaths this year before the bar stings began, he says.

"We were on track to exceed the 2005 fatalities," Hall says. "That's when we decided we had to do more."

(emphasis added)
 
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Rather than high-tech tracking devices, how about just having drunks ride horses to get around?
 
TX took it a few steps backwards...

When I first got here, TABC (Texas Alcohol Beverage Commission) were going into bars and restuarants and arresting people before they ever even thought about going to the parking lot and/or to their car. They used the laws regarding public intoxication as the basis for the arrest. Caused an uproar and I believe the operation is currently "suspended pending review".

I'm all for getting drunks off the road. Heaven knows I can knock back Tanqueray 10 like water, but if I make that decision, I also accept the responsibility of knowing my limits and/or paying for a cab. But snatching people out of bars just because they look drunk is not the answer.
 
When is the last time anyone here watched Clint Eastwood in "Any Which Way But Loose"? Funny movie, right? Remember Clint driving his old pickup, not hurting anybody, minding his own business, drinking a beer! Imagine that! And he didn't even run over a school bus full of kids! Impossible you say! Not really, it's called knowing your limits and acting like an adult. People used to be able to do it. Too bad so many DRUNK jerks out there ruined it for the rest of us that used to be able to have **A** THAT'S ONE (1) beer while cruzing down the road.

Everyone should be concerned about what happens in this crazy state, it's like a testing ground for the limits of goverement control. Next thing you know the stupidity flows out to the other states after they see what can be gotten away with here.
 
A few miles from the bar sting operation, Fresno police are working yet another DUI checkpoint. This one, at Ventura and R Streets, is marked by a large sign telling drivers: "Check Point Ahead. DUI and License." A line of orange cones funnels drivers into two single lanes, where police officers check every third motorist's driver's license and look for signs of intoxication: slurred speech, bloodshot eyes, the smell of alcohol. Many drivers already have their windows down and licenses held up for inspection as they approach the brightly lit checkpoint.

Well, yeah, but we're not a police state: we've become a nation of entirely willing, submissive criminal suspects.
 
Well, yeah, but we're not a police state: we've become a nation of entirely willing, submissive criminal suspects.
I think the term would be "People of Interest". This always
sounds better and reconciles the masses. After all it's in
the "PUBLICS INTEREST" whoever THAT is. I thought we
were part of it, but every time I ask about this, it
goes back to "The People" vs etc..
:confused: :banghead: :rolleyes:
 
Good, I hate drunk drivers, especially ones that have been convicted and put on probation, which probably restricts them from drinking, but they feel like its no big deal. Too bad.
 
It's at least nice to hear that some people in the government are realising how dangerous the roads are and to see people convicted who cause the deaths of others as in the recent LI case.

I was watching a pretty good Dateline report years ago and I believe it was the head of the NHTSI and he said that if you want to kill someone the best way to do it is with a car. It's absolutely true, automobiles and driving have gotten the exact opposite treatment as guns somehow if you manage to drive like a fool and kill someone it's an act of gods will and you couldn't help it, that's how fatal accidents with the rare exception of drunk driving has been handled, it took very long for drunk drivers to cause there to be laws against such things.

Right now I fear things are going overboard and the limits are structured for the most lightweight drinker and it's approaching absurdity in the cases outlined above. I wouldn't be surprised if some time in the future one of these laws is challenged successfuly by a person with that just meets BAC but isn't noticeable impaired, that's because when you follow someone out of a bar and didn't see them drink you're not allowed to assume they are drunk. What's being done in Fresno is spotty at best and endangers the very law they are trying to enforce.

In Japan if you are caught driving drunk your license is revoked for life. I think that's a good idea but even then it doesn't seem to work as the BAC limit has gone from .25 to .15 and even then there are still deaths and outrage. I think folks forget about prohibition and the current "war on drugs" and how effective these laws can be and how there will always be that backround noise affecting statistics when stricter laws and enforcement won't work do reduce it.
 
If someone is on probation or parole, there are certain terms and conditions that are agreed to prior to being released into the general public.

If one is not willing to be bound by those terms and conditions, then stay behind bars and refuse parole or probation.

Otherwise, until you serve out your time behind bars, on parole, or on probation, you better stick to the straight and narrow path. If not, too bad.

As for hanging out at a bar to pick-up drunk drivers, that's like shooting fish in a barrel. Maybe they should find out where the wedding receptions are going to be too. Or maybe see people drinking at a Memorial Day party in someone's yard and just wait around until people leave. Easy pickin.

Just a matter of time before we all have to blow into something before our vehicle will even start. It will probably analyze our DNA too to make sure it is us; well, at least until the microchips are implanted under our skin.

I would like to know what the BAC of the average drunk driver is when involved in an accident. Are there really large numbers who's BAC is less than 0.10? Just curious.

/rant off
 
YAY Fresno!!! w00t.

the only problem is that people will drink. always. those that are responsible will be responsible, and the drunken losers will always be drunken losers regardless of what the police are doing.

makes me sick to my stomach that the police are even tracking traffic ticket revenue.
 
I have zero problem with sitting near a bar at closing time and watching for staggering customers attempting to drive away. To me, that is a no-brainer. You have reason to think they're intoxicated, you observe their driving, you pull them over, you get PC to arrest and/or cite. Simple.

I have a real problem with checkpoints. Everyone is scrutinized. It seems too "papers, please" for my tastes.

Mike
 
As a matter of fact, if one reall wants to curb DUIs, put about two marked units in the parking lot at closing time. You'll get less arrests, but the local cab company will probably love you. ;) It won't stop DUIs (some people get stupid-drunk and will drive anyway, or think they're not staggering when they are), and cannot be done every night, but if they have a bar that is a problem it is another option besides a checkpoint.

Mike
 
"I have zero problem with sitting near a bar at closing time..."

I totally agree. Going into the bar is too much, harrasing people at checkpoints is too much, but if a LEO observes a patron leaving and is obviously drunk and then gets behind the wheel, nail him to the cross.

Of course I am also a proponent for car confiscation and permanent license revoktion for first time offenders who are .01 or higher.
 
It's all backwards.

Citizens should not be under the microscope... the government should be under the microscope. Every politician and elected official should be forced to wear a GPS tracking device. In addition, a camera and microphone should be installed in the offices of every politician and elected official, along with public access to their email. Monitoring devices should be installed on their phones. All this information should be made available via public websites, thus allowing anyone to completely monitor the activities of government officials. Now that's what I call freedom...
 
My issue with this is a tad more subtle.

I have no problem with busting drunk drivers.

However, this is a case study in the changing attitude about policing and what's appropriate in our society. I don't particularly like what I see.

If a cop is hanging around outside a bar, he is in a position to prevent a crime, prevent risk of injury to the community, and keep someone from having to go to jail -- note that the guy who's had a few too many is also a taxpayer.

Instead, we have the cop, who could probably prevent the crime with a few words, wait until the crime is being committed, then arrest anyone involved.

Is this what we've been reduced to? Do we really hate our neighbors so much that we WANT to send them to jail rather than just helping to prevent a hazard?

This general attitude is bad for the community, and it doesn't promote a positive image of the law, or law enforcement officers, either.

Frankly, this general attitude that cops are there to play "gotcha" on our neighbors, rather than keep the peace ("peace officers", anyone?) is what leads to a police state, more than any fine points of the law.
 
From what I understand, approximately 75% of motor vehicle fatalies in Texas are intoxication related. I heard that statistic once, so I don't have a link to it. Armed Bear, I agree that it would be nice to prevent the crime before it is committed, but I wonder how many of those people would just do it the next night anyway? I don't like the checkpoints though. I went through those in Alberta growing up, and it sure gave me a feeling of being a criminal although I was doing nothing wrong. It reminded me of movies of East Germany.

What they are doing in Fresno may not be the best solution, but instead of just complaining, shouldn't we be thinking of an alternative? We can't just say, "arrest them after they do something illegal" because that often means someone else loses their life. We would never stand for the police telling us that we don't need to take proactive steps to protect our lives by having guns because the cops can just arrest a criminal after he hurts us. But it seems like many of you are doing just that here. I can't do anything to protect myself from a drunk driver, so I am at the mercy of the police. I'd like them to do something.
 
Wouldn't that town spend a lot less money just subsidizing some cabs to drive people home at night for discounted rates? Or funding a shuttle bus to drop people off?

-If they are so intent on stopping it, why don't they have an officer in the bar confiscate keys on the 2nd drink order?
-They could require valet parking at all bars and then monitor people as they come out. Allow the people to hang out in front drinking tea or water until their BAC is legal or call a cab.
-They could help the bars make sure the parking area is secure so people don't mind leaving their cars there.

I am with ArmedBear. That town is not trying to prevent the crime, it is almost encouraging it and then laying down the hammer. There are a lot of things Fresno could do that they are ignoring. If they are doing check points, they could do the above with a lot less manpower I think.
 
But research has shown that police departments that strictly enforce traffic laws make an impact on other crime, says John Grant, manager of the division of state and provincial police at the IACP.

This is the theory that's led to a massive increase in pretense stops. I went for over a decade and only got pulled over a few times, all for legitimate speed-related issues, including once for speeding on my bicycle. In the past five years I've been pulled over nearly 100 times, sometimes multiple times in the same drive. Out of all that I've had a handful of minor citations for zee papers violations, none related in any way to my driving ability or safety. The cops stop me, flash the light around in my eyes, scan around for coffee cans in the cab, and then leave. These are pretense stops. And every time they happen I hate the police and government a little bit more.

As far as drunks go, I've seen many of them. I got to play dodge with one in a thirty mile stretch of highway between Eagle River and Wasilla one fine day. She was flying from one side of the road to the other, clearly intoxicated out of her mind. The troopers were nowhere to be seen, and she was only arrested when she crossed literally right in front of the Wasilla Police Dept! I have almost no respect for the "thin blue line" at this point. They're a revenue generation source.
 
It's all backwards.

Citizens should not be under the microscope... the government should be under the microscope. Every politician and elected official should be forced to wear a GPS tracking device. In addition, a camera and microphone should be installed in the offices of every politician and elected official, along with public access to their email. Monitoring devices should be installed on their phones. All this information should be made available via public websites, thus allowing anyone to completely monitor the activities of government officials. Now that's what I call freedom...
That's about as close to the center of the nail as one
could ask for !
 
Wouldn't that town spend a lot less money just subsidizing some cabs to drive people home at night for discounted rates? Or funding a shuttle bus to drop people off?

When I was at the college the school started a free taxi service that operated from @ 6pm to 4am. This was a small town who's population doubled when school was in session and there was a sizable drunk driving problem. The free taxi did cut down on drunk driving, but cost the school a lot of $ to operate and didn't stop drunk frat guys from being stupid just to be stupid.

The Cops also had a much more proactive approach to preventing crime rather than punishing it. There would allways be a heavy police pressence around the bars on Friday and Saturday nights. If you walked by a cop and were obviously too drunk (i.e. falling down, slured speech) the cop would stop you and suggest that you go home. If you are in a group with a DD the cop would suggest that the DD take you home and meet up with the group later. If you have no DD or were by yourself, the cop would either call a taxi or GIVE YOU A RIDE HOME IN HIS CRUISER!!:eek:

There would be no ticket, no arrest, and most importantly, no traffic fatalities. The cops in this town were interested in protecting the community and that included the drunken idiots.

Now this may have only worked b/c it was a small town, but the attitude of the police sure beats waiting around to pounce on some one as soon as they break the law.
 
What they are doing in Fresno may not be the best solution, but instead of just complaining, shouldn't we be thinking of an alternative? We can't just say, "arrest them after they do something illegal" because that often means someone else loses their life.

So what? I don't understand how people can be so "If it just saves one life" when it comes to laws regarding drinking but spew fire when someone applies it to their gun rights. Let's turn that same phrase you just used over to guns and see how you feel about it.

"You see, if nobody had a gun, they couldn't do something illegal with it and nobody would lose their life."

I know most of you don't like that one, but it is the same exact concept. You can't support one and not the other, that is hypocrisy. The simple fact, in both cases, is that you cannot control someone else's behaivor. Whether it is a person choosing to drive a car intoxicated or take a gun and murder you for your money. However,

I can't do anything to protect myself from a drunk driver, so I am at the mercy of the police. I'd like them to do something.

This is a completely untrue statement. You most certainly can do something about it, don't drive late at night, don't drive near bars, and drive defensively. There are 3 things you can do to protect yourself. It is no different than not going into the wrong neighborhood, staying in condition yellow, or avoiding criminal hot spots. Why are you ok with protecting yourself outside of your car but not in it?

The simple truth is that you can't prejudge the affect alcohol has on people. Some people can't handle one drink and some people can handle 10. Studies have shown that people who are midly intoxicated (0.08) have equal performance to cell-phone drivers (they actually brake more aggresively!). Furthermore, most fatal accidents occur when the motorist is past functioning, i.e. 3 times the legal limit (can't find the study quoted in a FOX news article right now). The simple fact is the people causing issues are not your social drinkers, who adjust their driving, it is repeat offenders who get plastered beyond normal functionality. These are the people who are driving over shrubs and hitting cars in the parking lot before they get out there and cause an accident.

Personally, I could care less what your BAC is when you drive. If you get in a car and drive in a manner that is clearly dangerous, swerving or nearly causing an accident, you should be tossed in jail and fined whether it is because you are drunk or using a cell-phone. If you can't hold yourself up, be cognitive, or have normal physical responses, whether you are tired from a long drive, prescription drugs, or drinking, out you go, in the squad car, and off to jail. There is no difference in the danger, we just choose to think the alcohol is bad... evil... blame that horrible object, not the person using it! :rolleyes:

Furthermore, I don't care if you drink while you drive, that is your choice, as long as you obey the traffic rules and don't cause an issue. If you run a red light because you are drunk or you are putting on make-up, I don't care, they should be fined equally and punished equally. If you kill someone, then you need to be in jail for a REALLY long time whether it was because you were changing the radio dial, driving too fast, or had too much to drink. The important thing should be the capability of the driver, not the reason for his impairment. That means that an 85 year old who can't see and causes an accident is as culpable to me as a 22 year old who casued the same type of accident because he had been drinking, I don't care why it happened.

Living life is dangerous and there is a chance that you may die, accept it, do what you can to lower your chances, and move on. Me, I'm willing to accept that I might die because of a drunken driver or a criminal with ill intent. I'd rather die enjoying my civil liberties in a country that doesn't treat me like a child than live longer in a nanny state that treats me like some sort of criminal to be for the benefit of their revenue and statistics.
 
Deavis, I agree with you, but unfortunately there is not a Legislature in the US that does. Kill someone while driving drunk and you will serve little or no time. Kill someone accidentally with your handgun and see how much time you get. If we locked up people who kill while drunk we'd really make a dent in the problem, not because it would be a deterrent, but because most of the people doing it now are repeat offenders. Most of us don't engage in that type of behavior.
 
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