Spacing between extractor and breech-face

[GregAllCalibers]

S&W 4513TSW. Having feed problems. When a new round is ripped from the magazine, it should slide up and under the extractor. Sometimes I get a round that slides up but gets in front of the extractor. When the slide tries to close, it does not go fully into battery as casing head is between the extractor and the barrel entry (unless I give it a thump from the rear of the slide, so the extractor pops over the casing rim).

When I have the slide removed, and carefully put a round up under the extractor, it does not hold it against the breech. There is a little space and the cartridge can easly fall out. I know on the 1911 the extractor is supposed to hold the casing against the breech-face. Is this the same for the newer autos, such as this Smith and Wesson 45 ? What amount of extractor tension is normal?

I would really appreciate someone out there removing the slide on their semi auto and doing the same (especially a .45), and letting me know if it can hold a round under the extractor. If someone has a Smith in a .45, that's even better.

 

[fastbolt]

There are at least a couple of things that can cause this sort of feeding problem, but they can't really be identified and diagnosed online. The pistol should be examined and checked in order to identify the cause of such feeding problems.

The extractors on S&W metal-framed pistols have to be fitted to each slide. They aren't a drop-in part. This involves filing the adjustment pad surface on the inside of the extractor, which is what rests against the inside surface of the extractor slot recess. It controls how far inward the extractor hook reaches. A bar Go/No-Go gauge is used to check this tolerance. A flag Go/No-Go gauge also used to be used, but in the last armorer's class I attended for recert it was said that this isn't necessary anymore, and S&W no longer sells them to their factory trained LE armorers with the bar block gauges.

The bar gauge tells the technician, gunsmith or armorer when the extractor is within normal tolerance regarding the 'reach' of the extractor hook's edge, while the flag gauge measured the distance between the rear of the hook and the breech face surface.

A dial gauge is used to check for proper spring tension when it comes to the force exerted by the extractor spring on the extractor, too.

If an extractor is fitted too tightly feeding problems may occur, and if it's to loosely fitted extraction problems may occur.

Naturally, ammunition case rim dimension variations can occur with different ammunition.

Also, 'grip stability' issues (shooter-induced) may come into play and may sometimes hinder the slide from cycling fully and properly, and feeding timing may be affected.

Then again, sometimes a magazine lip issue may occur in which the round is released too soon for proper feeding, and it pops up in front of the extractor during cycling.

Recoil and magazine spring health is something else that may be involved in some instances, as well as lubrication issues.

My personally owned 4513TSW, albeit one of the earlier 'original' models (6-round magazine), has performed reliably with many different brands of ammunition for several years. Many other 4513TSW's which I've helped maintain have also proven themselves very reliable. Ditto some 457's.

S&W .45 pistols are generally known for their boringly monotonous reliability and feeding.

Just my thoughts.

Sorry I can't give you an answer, but I'm just a lowly LE armorer (which means I'm NOT a gunsmith or factory technician).

You should call S&W and ask them to check your pistol (including any magazine, or magazines, which are involved when this occurs). 1-800-331-0852. Ask to speak to a technician, if possible, and be prepared to include a detailed letter if they send you a pre-paid UPS shipping label.

 

[GregAllCalibers]

Fastbolt, thanks for the detailed reply. Good info. I also have the original 4513TSW 6rd (without tactical rail), which is the same as the 4516 (steel version).

I did more research and I am thinking the mechanism for the casing getting in front of the extractor during feeding is due to the dimple on the follower has worn down (I ordered new followers today from Smith). I suggest this after review of many posts by the moderator "1911Tuner". For example, this post http://tinyurl.com/mf6tt

Was your 6rd 4513TSW able to hold the casing to the breechface using the extractor tension? I understand there is a 'go/no-go' gauge, but typically how tight are the extractors on a (non-1911) .45?

 

[makarovnik]

Sounds loose

Sounds like your extractor claw is worn or maybe the extractor tension is too loose. I have seen extractor adjusting tools at Brownell's. From what I've heard, too loose an extractor will almost always cause a failure but too tight usually works in most guns (within reason), especially if you have a nice stiff recoil spring. If you start having ejection problems the extractor is too tight.

 

[fastbolt]

Well, I've pointedly asked different armorers and some folks at S&W whether the extractor holding (or not holding) a 230gr .45 dummy round against the breech face ... ala the 1911 extractor ... meant anything. I've been consistently told "No ... It's not a 1911 design extractor."

Sometimes my S&W .45's would hold 230gr dummy rounds under the extractor ... and sometimes they wouldn't. This in pistols offering reliable functioning when actually being fired with live ammunition ...

Now, if you're only taking about the LAST round in the magazines doing this ... then yes, I'd look at both the follower and magazine spring strength. The magazine springs are at their least amount of tension when feeding the last round, and the dimple is placed on the follower to help prevent the last round from being displaced by recoil when the spring is at its least amount of tension.

I must admit I ignored the number of rounds I'd been shooting through both my 4513TSW and CS45 for a while. Quite a while. Kind of lost track how often and how much I'd been shooting them.

A while back I also suddenly experienced a few 'last rounds' being released prematurely, either causing the condition you described, or resulting in a few live 'last rounds' being ejected with the next-to-the-last round's empty case.

Since feeding malfunctions aren't something to which I'm accustomed experiencing in S&W .45's, I immediately started to examine both the pistols and the magazines.

Now, imagine my chagrin as I explain how I can sometimes overlook the obvious ...

When I was examining my magazines, it dawned on me that the little raised dimples on the plastic followers in the magazines which were being used at the time were all pretty much worn away. Feeling rather foolish for not realizing their increasing wear sooner, I replaced the followers ... and surprise, surprise, the 'problems' disappeared in both my pistols. I now keep a couple of dozen spare followers on hand ... since I've been doing a lot of .45 shooting in recent months.

I also started keeping an eye on the followers, so I can replace them as part of my regular preventive maintenance as the dimples start to become excessively worn in the future. I have no excuse for it previously escaping my attention, especially since I was going through successive magazine & recoil springs in the same pistols.

Good thing someone else pays for my ammunition, let me tell you.

Good thing I've never claimed to be smart ... :banghead: