Static electricity & primers

[FROGO207]

RC That is why most of us electricians use fiberglass ladders even though they cost 3X or more what a metal one does. It does sound like a loose or open neutral somewhere. If your ground comes from a set of ground rods even some corrosion on a connection can cause lots of weird changes as things are turned on and off. Might even be on the pole down the road as one other has stated. Might even be left over from a lightning strike in the past. For the hot tub wire to pop the main breaker you have a short in that line and it should at least be disconnected inside your breaker box for safety sake. Please let us know what is found.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

A hot tub breaker is 50amps, more than enough to send you to meet your maker.

If you have a ground fault somewhere in the house or have two circuits tied together at the end of the runs that land on the same phase at the box, the circuit breakers won't blow, or only one of them will blow. You would be running 40amps through a 20amp rated wire.

Having a ground fault won't blow the breakers. I am an industrial electrician of 35years so I'm not blowing smoke to up my post count.

GET AN ELECTRICIAN IN THERE AND TRACK THAT PROBLEM DOWN. As someone else said there could be a nail driven through a romex cable that is grounding out the outlet when it's under load.

We don't need a GAMESTALKER MEMORIAL at the top of the handloadng forum.

Honestly I would start shutting off breakers one at a time through the entire breaker box to a see which circuit is causing the problem and if you find it leave that circuit off until it's fixed.

Plug a lamp into the outlet and start turning off breakers. A lamp is a resistive load meaning nothing will blow up it gets overloaded. The bulb will just burn out. I almost will to bet if you turn your breakers off one at a time the lamp will never go out. That would mean you have to breakers from the same phase feeding the same outlet.

 

[gamestalker]

RC, please don't work with electrical while standing on aluminum ladders any more, your advice and expertise around here would be sorely missed.

Suemarkp, I spoke to an old friend of over 30 yrs. who owns his own electrical contracting company about this last night. Although I don't have a clear understanding of the terminology, as it applies to such, he did explain it much in the same fashion as you have. He explained that many older electronic appliances, tools and such, are not as vulnerable to static damage, if at all. For instance, I use an E-cig, great smoking cessation device BTW, it uses lithium ion batts from what I understand. Anyway, I have ruined 2 batts and 3 chargers when removing a battery from the charger, the static spark jumps to it, and then the LED light that indicates it's charged, or is charging instantly goes out, and then one, or both the charger and the batt gets killed. This is exactly what happened when I killed the Dewalt batts and charger.

Anyway, my buddy the electrical contractor is coming over today to check things out, and to cap off the wires outside on the concrete pad. I'll try to explain his findings following his diagnosis and repair.

I have tried to make it a habit to discharge myself before touching elect. devices, but now and then it slips my mind. And although I've only heard of one or two unconfirmed incidents of primer detonation from static. But since this extreme issue with such, I've also made it a habit to make 100% certain I'm not static charged when in contact with them. Nothing on my bench is plugged into a source, I use a wall mounted lamp for my lighting needs. I used to use a cordless drill, hmm, but that quit working though.

And a sincere thank you to all who have offered their advice and cautions.

GS

 

[Mohave-Tec]

My bench is in my office in bone dry Las Vegas. I use my desk chair when I reload. No issue at the bench but my desk is a steal and glass corner unit and it would fry me on a regular basis.
I bought a 14 guage, 8 ft extension cable, busted the blades off the male side and cut/spliced/soldered a heavy spade on the earth ground. Picked a frame bolt very close to my keyboard on my steal desk and the caster generator effect went away.

 

[oneounceload]

Ground your press and put a plastic office chair mat underneath

 

[rcmodel]

Anyway, my buddy the electrical contractor is coming over today to check things out, and to cap off the wires outside on the concrete pad.

Capping them off outside on the pad will do no good at all.

The short is most likely between the concrete pad and the circuit breaker in the house.
And probably the tip of the ice-berg that caused the whole mess.

You need to unhook the wire from the box & pull the breaker so it is no longer hooked to electricity at all!

If you want a hot tub in the future, dig it up and start over with new underground UF-F cable again.
Preferably inside a waterproof conduit.

In the meantime after that, their time would be better spent checking every outlet in the house for proper wiring, loose connections screws, aluminum wire corrosion, fused / defective breakers, and incoming line voltage.

Maybe even get the power company to put a monitor on your feed for awhile to check for power surges, excess voltage, 60 cycle variation, etc.

Whatever is blowing up your stuff just isn't normal.
And it sure as heck isn't static electricity!

rc

 

[gamestalker]

He came out and took some amp draw readings, and some other stuff I know nothing about a little bit ago. He is sending one of his guys out Monday to pull, or I guess disconnect the wires to the outside service / hot tub from the breaker box. I think he'll get it figured out within a couple days.

GS

 

[Paddy]

This reminds me of a problem my friend had. His house service had slowly developed a bad neutral line, and it was causing strange phenomenon inside with appliances dying and stuff. He ended up getting the power company to pay for a bunch of blown up stuff. Like 5000$, worth so keep track of what is dying on you and I'd be careful with loading supplies!

 

[gamestalker]

One of his guys just left after sniffing around for a while. He said something about readings being different, and at different sources throughout the house. He checked the breaker box, at the pedestal, and most of the sockets and light switches. GFI popped while he was here, nothing he did, but it got his attention that much more. He said he needed to consult with my buddy, (his boss), but stated that something is definitely not right.

GS

 

[blarby]

something is definitely not right

Thats why you pay the pros !

 

[wally]

NO idea how static electricity could possibly zap two 18V Dewalt's and the charger, plus all the other stuff.

The trend these days is for these consumer items to be "double insulated" and "float" its safer given that even in hospitals a large number of outlets are wired incorrectly (hot neutral reversed) or have high resistance grounds.

I seriously doubt the issue is "static electricity", but don't have much experience with static electricity here in Houston where it can be down right embarrassing to try and do a high school physics class static electricity demonstration

I'm constantly having to reset GFI's too.

I'd wager there is an issue at the service entrance, probably bad connections between neutral and "ground". The GFI is "looking" for current flow in the ground wire (definition of a fault) or an imbalance of the flows in hot and neutral. This how it protects you if a defective appliance sends current through you instead of back through neutral, needing to reset GFI's is a sign of something seriously wrong! If its not the appliance then it must be the wiring on the other side of the GFI which can cause it to fail to protect you in the event of a defective appliance!

 

[GaryL]

There has been an incident or two regarding static setting off primers. I seem to recall one of the older guys on the board suggesting it was likely that enough primer dust had built up to be set off by a spark and that caused the problem. That explanation makes the most sense to me, as the primer cup should route any electrical current around and away from the priming compound.

Regarding batteries, no static charge can affect them. However, if they are LiON, or some of the newer NiCads, there is a charge/discharge control circuit built into the battery pack to monitor state of charge, battery condition, and provide some measure of protection to avoid battery fires. A static discharge into the controller can easily kill it. The battery will easily absorb the tiny amount of charge involved, which could actually make the electronics more vulnerable, depending on the design and layout of the circuit.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Gamestalker,

Have one of your electrical buddies put a multimeter across the neutral and ground in your breaker box to see if you can read any voltage. If your breaker box doesn't have the bonding screw connecting the neutral and ground bar together you may be able to read a voltage across the two lines. There should be no voltage there at all if your electrical system is correct. If you do read voltage between the neutral and the ground then something is shorting out somewhere. Shut each breaker off one at a time and take the same reading. When the voltage disappears you will know which circuit is causing your problem.

If your box does have a bonding screw in it connecting the neutral and ground you could have them take it out and do the same exercise.



If you happen to have a GFI (ground fault breaker) hooked to a circuit that already has a GFI on it somewhere else, one of them is going to trip even if there is nothing wrong with the circuit. GFIs don't play well together on the same circuit.

The fact that you haven't said you are tripping breakers is making me wonder.

If you do have a problem with one of your circuits and a breaker isn't tripping it has to be because of either a GFI is catching it before the threshold of the breaker is reached or the circuit is being fed from both ends by two breakers from the same phase. You would have to exceed 40 amps instead of 20 before a breaker would trip. If someone drove a nail through a Romex cable a GFI would never reset or it would trip as soon as a load was put on it every time.

If you have a bad motor in a refrigerator or something, it could still be running and cause a problem like this to some degree. Usually what I find causing an arcing problem or a tripping problem in a ground fault is bad connections that produce a resistive load on the circuit. That you should be able to fine in your breaker box with a amp probe.

My reloading room is the static haven from hell and I've never seen any arc from an outlet no matter what I plugged in. If the grounds are not hooked up in the outlets I still don't think there would be a problem.

If you plug in a devise that is already switched on, even a lamp, there could be an arc. That is normal. just unplug a vacuum sweeper with out shutting it off first. You could see an arc from unplugging it the same as you could see one from plugging it in.

Double insolated devises are not grounded at all. They do not protect your electrical system from any harm if they short out. They only protect you from getting shocked if they short. If what you plugged in made an arc then chances are it had something wrong with it.

But to answer your question, no, static cannot and should not jump the prongs of your electrical reloading devises when you plug them in, especially this time of year.

 

[gamestalker]

Well, everyone is moving pretty slow on this problem, but here's an update. My internet provider tech guy came over this AM to run some diagnostics, because my internet service is constantly going down daily. The first thing he did when he got here this morning, was he went to reset the system, and when he reached for the power cord a big nasty blue arch nailed him. He jumps about 5' and says that was some seriously high static electricity? I told him what's going on around here, and he said no, that was static, a lot of it. Then he went to unplug the router, same thing happens again, same intensity, same blue arch. He again says that is absolutely positively static, but to be sure he took some voltage readings, amp draw, and checked for various types of resistance and voltage, also checked for issues with the outlet, everything checked out fine.

My contractor buddy informed me all is good, and that it is absolutely static making it's way to the outlet when it has a path, I think he used the term field. He said he has had those type batteries get killed by static. best solution is to discharge on something that it will feed to before touching a device or outlet. And that I need to spray my carpet with something to kill the static problem.

GS

 

[rcmodel]

See post #2 again!


rc

 

[spitballer]

Gamestalker the static from your carpet may not be causing the malfunctions in your charging equipment, but you have EVERY RIGHT TO BE CONCERNED about sparks around your reloading area. I've often thought about it in the winter when handling bulk powder and it still gives me pause.

For what it's worth, checking electrical receptacles for wired connections might be a simple and easy place to start hunting for sources of trouble. Just because a receptacle has three holes doesn't mean that there are three wires connected to the back. Especially in older homes.

Also, air fresheners that generate ozone MAY be a source of static, but I'm sure about this. Might be worth checking into if you run one. Good luck to you in solving this problem!

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I think if my static problem was that bad I would be using a humidification system of some kind. I don't know how dry the air is in Arizona but I think that where the people with breathing problems go to get relief.

Do you get a static shock on everything you touch? That's how bad it is in my house in the winter. I would undress when I go to bed with the lights out and have a light show going on in my closes while I was taking them off. I get shocked on every piece of metal and sometimes even plastic but I have never seen an outlet in my house throw an nasty arc from unplugging or plugging something in. The static would get so bad that I couldn't reload at all because I would get up to a whole grain of powder difference between loads from my powder measures.

All I can say is you better take stock in Static Guard because you are going to need a lot of it. I wonder if the grounding rods for your service are truly grounded to the earth?
Does this problem go away when it's raining?

 

[gamestalker]

Oh definitely, the static is real bad out here. Our air is about as dry as it can get. Everything I touch produces a very good, very visible spark. Static guard is happening this pay day. My poor dog looks like a porcupine half the time. I can raise my hand over the top of my wife's head and her hair stands straight up, and she has some long hair. Getting in and out of bed at night is a major light show. like I said, I touch certain objects to discharge before going for something that's plugged in, and it totally prevents it provided I don't wait too long before I make my move.

At this point I have had everything tested, all the sockets, the breaker box was checked out, and no one can find anything that sends up red flags.

GS

 

[rcmodel]

Find the ground rod driven into the ground outside from your phone or cable connection.

Then water the snot out of it with a slow dripping stream from a garden hose for a day or two.

But If Static Guard on the rug does't stop it all together.
I'm out of ideas.

A static bolt from my truck seats getting in and out of it in the winter during the drought a couple years would about knock you to your knees every time you touched it.

One spray of Static Guard on the seats two years ago and I haven't seen or felt a spark since.

Its less then $4 bucks at Walmart!

If you can afford the gas to get there, you can afford to buy a can and try it before payday!

rc

 

[Reloadron]

With a focus on primers and ESD:

Properties of particular importance to the dealer and user
of primers are as follows:
1. Primers may explode if subjected to mishandling.
Explosions may be caused by friction and by percussion,
such as hammering, pounding, dropping or bullet impact.
Heating by fire, static electricity, sparks, hot tobacco
ashes, or other unspecified abuses may also cause
primers to explode.

The above quote was taken from our friends at SAAMI, however, the same reference can also be found in several white papers that deal with primers and primer composition.

Now on the off chanch we manage to detonate a primer as a result of ESD another can of worms opens:

2. If primers are loose or in bulk, having contact one
with another, one primer exploding can, and usually will,
cause a violent, sympathetic explosion of all primers...

With the above in mind it would be a real good idea as suggested to get some static guard and see how that works out. Sometimes in the case of new carpeting after a few weeks and vacuum cleanings the material will generate less static. Yes, ESD can detonate a primer is the bottom line.

If static guard fails to work you may want to look at what the relative humidity is in the room. If you are running air conditioning that dries the air you may want to consider adding a humidifier.

Ron

 

[rcmodel]

Static Guard Will Not fail to work.

One of the few things I have ever bought that does Exactly What It Says it will, every time!

It instantly stops static on carpets, car seats, reloading equipment, packing peanuts, shop vac hose, etc.

And my fuzzy bunny slippers, And my clinging silk slip.

It just flat out works, always, every time I have used it, on anything.

rc

 

[Jesse Heywood]

For your computers and reloading station I will suggest getting some anti-static mats.

Find the ground rod driven into the ground outside from your phone or cable connection.

Then water the snot out of it with a slow dripping stream from a garden hose for a day or two.

You stole my thunder. I will add that if this works, I would add two grounds at opposite sides of the house.

And my clinging silk slip.

TMI!

 

[suemarkp]

Can't hurt to make sure your ground electrode system is good, as that will provide a path to drain static. But it won't drain it out of your carpets, walls, or you.

I've heard bounce sheets remove static, so you can rub them on things you don't want to spray.

You could put a static mat or metal screen on the floor under the bench where you stand. But that mat needs a ground connection (going to a faceplate screw on a power outlet should work).

You may want to try a swamp cooler. These help to cool, but also increase humidity. Horrible in most of the country except in arid areas like yours. You need a way to keep it wet though (a water connection, or constant refilling with water).

 

[morcey2]

Morcey2, is that what the polarity switch does on my amp? I've been juiced pretty good before when trading guitars with someone else who is also plugged in. I've been juiced quite a few times over the last 45 yrs. or so doing that. Now I always unplug first as a result.

But ya, me thinks I got a major problem. I'll skip the ground strap thing until the problem has been identified and fixed.

GS

The polarity switch on most older amps switches which side of the mains the chassis (and thus the strings) are connected to electrically. It's a result of them having non-polarized 2-prong plugs. I won't work on an amp that has one unless I'm putting in a 3-prong plug with a dedicated mains ground and proper fusing. It's not something to mess with and it can kill you.

The zapping you get when swapping guitars with someone else means that one (or both) amps are not wired correctly. There is also a ground-lift switch that lifts the ground to get rid of ground loops and that's almost never a the right way to fix things either.

Anyway, I'm drifting completely off-topic. Unless the topic is "How to not die by being electrocuted doing stuff we like."

Matt

 

[1SOW]

The variable speed drill trigger circuit, the charger circuitry use Integrated circuits for function, don't know about the nicad batteries but the newer Lithium Ion batteries also also have I.C.s to regulate that nice output until shut-off. If you found 'some way' of discharging a good size static build-up directly into these circuits they could be damaged. All it takes is a difference of potential between you and the I.C..
I don't know if touching the contacts on these would do it or not.