"Stop right there!" : The 'line in the sand' or ringing the fight bell?

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Brass Fetcher

Brass Fetcher

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After a traffic collision that I was involved in, I sat in my car waiting for the police while the gentleman who ran into the back of my car got out of his and proceeded to walk towards my car while shouting curses towards me.

My question: Given the danger of letting an irate person get close to you, what do you think about verbally warning them to stop their advance towards you? IE saying - "Hold it right there" or "stay where you are".

In my mind, I see this as your (hopefully) first assertive action in the potential conflict. If they stop, that is fantastic - but will they see this as an escalation as well?

Thank you!

JE
 
Yes, it was escalation on the part of the guy walking toward you, and it would be a good idea to tell him to stop. It would also be a good idea to stay in your car while he's mad. Not very macho, but likely your best de-escalation route.
 
i would probably tell him cops were on their way and slide out the other car door to keep my car between the two of us. i dont think i would want to stay in my car as it greatly limits mobility. my .02
 
The only safe, physically and legally, route is to stay in the vehicle, and order him to stop and stay away from your vehicle.
This is the way that will keep YOU out of trouble with the law, if you got out of the vehicle you would be legally excalating hte situation and thus be opening yourself to various charges as you would most likely have a gun on you (brandishing, asualt with intent, and so on).
 
if you got out of the vehicle you would be legally excalating hte situation and thus be opening yourself to various charges as you would most likely have a gun on you (brandishing, asualt with intent, and so on).
Click to expand...

Depends on the situation. Buddy of mine was in a similar one, the guy in front of him bowed up and he had to hit the brakes hard to keep from hitting him, the guy behind him was slower and plowed him. Got out screaming and hollering, my buddy rolled up the window, but the dude busted it out, and commenced to assault him. Poor fellow didn't realize my buddy was a builder. Got a framing hammer up side the head for his trouble. :D Police got there in time to call the EMS to cart his sorry but off to get medical attention.
 
You might want to stay away from using your "command voice". Could escalate the situation. It's usually more productive to be nice and calm, at least until that doesn't work.

Jeff
 
Every situation is different . You just have to play it by ear . IMO just sitting in the drivers seat while some jackass is screaming at you is not a good idea . You don't want to escalate the situation but sitting there with someone outside your window puts you in a poor " tactical " position . IMO it would be better to slide out the opposite door and keep the vehicle between you or at least slide over to the passenger seat . I would say nothing to the person.
 
By staying in the car, you can still drive off if the other guy keeps elevating the threat. Drive off a short distance, wait for the police, return when they arrive. During all this you can also be on the phone with dispatch.

Again, its not macho or manly, but it is consistent with the notion of avoiding the fight.
 
dial 911 back... even if you can't talk to them, they'll have a recording of whatever goes down. if things go pear-shaped, it'll be nice to have a recording of you saying, "Stay where you are. please don't come any closer"
 
The hands free feature on your cell phone is great for this. My wife was with another lady from her office when they were rear ended by an uninsured female driver. The other driver got out of the car with her two male companions and started berating and threatening my wife's friend. My wife kept her cool, advised her friend to stay in the car, and called the cops. She forgot to leave the connection open though, and the threats that were made came down to a "our word against yours" situation when the Springdale PD arrived. With three witnesses against two, the officers couldn't get enough PC to arrest or cite the other female for the threats she made, so they just ticketed her for reckless driving.

911 recordings are your friend. Use 'em.
 
Interesting responses

Thank you all for the input - I understand that the offending party might perceive you as challenging their dominance (and 'how dare you do so' :barf: ) in the situation. In fact, I could see the suggestion of moving to the other side of the car (a great idea - especially if you could have seen where I was at the time, in a median during the first part of rush hour), as well as any other defensive-oriented posture as being threatening. Do you know what I mean?

It would be easy to jump forward in the 'force on force continuum' in a case like that - many of us are trained to back up with gun drawn in the presence of a hostile presence moving towards us... for all that I knew, he was not armed and was physically smaller than I was. Even though my thought train was like this: "How absurd is this? The guy's waving his hands like a loony, etc ,etc , but I don't know what I'm going to do if he gets close". For all that I knew, he could have been Bruce Lee's Caucasian brother. I didn't want to find out - it would have been to my huge disadvantage, IMO.

But to stay more general in the thread ... is there a point in a confrontation where the person has moved past the point of posturing and is preparing to physically attack and can a potential victims defensive preparations push them over into this area? Basically like the difference between the school-yard chest thumping and what might occur on the battlefield - in one venue, the combatants are motivated (pissed off mainly) by one thing, whereas the mindset of the soldier is completely different - they are well into the area of taking action before the actual fight begins, etc.

Would the law view the victims actions as escalation or prudent preparation? I know there is a difference between the cop on the street and the shined-up lawyer's view on similar matters! :)

Thank you!

JE
 
Sounds as if you need to check out the laws in your state. With an attorney. Preferably one who is up to date on self defense and such in your state.

One of the possible charges (brandishing) mentioned earlier in the thread, does not exist in my state. There is a statute against pointing a firearm at another without legal justification. There is no law against holding a weapon or placing your hand on a weapon in its holster. Please don't infer that I am suggesting this is the proper course to take, I'm simply illustrating the difference in laws between states.
 
What if they walk up to your car and see the gun lying in your lap? In my state, we have open carry and I believe we are allowed to leave the gun in open sight in our car. Is that brandishing?
 
say "Cheese"

Staying in the car with your cell phone tied into 911 does seem the best bet but don't forget to snap a picture if your cell phone has a camera - their angry face looking into your window would speak loudly to a judge or jury!
 
Use the social skills you developed over the course of your entire life to deal with the situation until you clearly are in danger, and its plainly obvious conversations and appeals to rational behavior won't work. When you know it, you'll just know.
 
Use common sense and niceness to de-escalate the situation... but if it's unavoidable, I would not stay in the car by any means. I'd get out and get mobile, keeping the car between us. If it comes down to it, draw on him, even if he's unarmed. The SOB is obviously trying to do you bodily harm.
 
So if the guy starts to kick your door in while your sitting there or smashes your window, would that call for deadly force? I mean I would think that's an attempt to harm a person. I would figure if someones just standing outside your door and shouting swears, you can't really do much but call 911.

I live in Florida.
 
This incident happened in FL, as a matter of fact...

What made it such a 'sticky' situation is that the guy appeared to be on the 'end of his rope', like he was having problems in life and this was the potential trigger to violence - he did not give any indications of being a psychopath (he was 'barking', 'not getting ready to bite', etc), so deadly force didn't look like it would ever have been an option - but I might have caught a small beating.

IE, I'd rather get roughed up a little bit than shoot someone who was temporarily emotionally disturbed... But hearing from martial artists/cops, even a light hit in the wrong place can do permanent damage - like I said a really awkward situation.

Now, if OBL came waltzing out of that truck... :evil:
 
IE, I'd rather get roughed up a little bit than shoot someone who was temporarily emotionally disturbed... But hearing from martial artists/cops, even a light hit in the wrong place can do permanent damage - like I said a really awkward situation.
Click to expand...


One's ability to draw their gun, and be able to use it properly drops drastically once they are already in a fight. And once you're in a fight, it's hard to tell how far it will go. Conceding to "I'll let myself get in a fight and get beat up a bit before I draw" is pretty much asking to be killed by blunt force trauma. Your chances of ending a threat with your weapon really only last up until the first punch is thrown. Once you and the other guy are actually going at it, you're pretty much in a fist fight until it's over. You can't stop once you're on the ground with a cracked skull saying "gee I wish I wouldn't have let it get this far". I hope it doesn't end with you paralyzed or dead.
 
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This is why

it pays to try and stay in shape a bit. I'm several years past sixty-five and still have the ability to fend off the average physical attack. If nothing else, there are ways to introduce space between yourself and the assailant sufficient to draw a weapon. There are also alternate means of CQB which utilize less lethal approaches, allowing escalation to a point sufficient to stop the assault but still come short of even the threat of deadly force. Having options is vital in todays litigious society. I'd rather jamb my fingers in a guys eyes than shoot him.
 
I'll have to check my state laws as pertaining to brandishing. I had assumed it was illegal. (if legal) it would have stopped him to arrive at my driver's side window to find me checking that the 000 buck in my Taurus judge was seated correctly. No pointing or even gesturing, just a calm cylinder check to show him that there will be NO physical altercation over a car accident. I can think of several reasons to get in a fight, a car accident is not one of them.
I think that "Stop right there" is not the best thing to say to someone showing visible signs of lunacy. Then again, there aren't many good things to say to them and no way to tell which is which when you're in the heat of the moment. It's a crap shoot with crazy people. I've dealt with several in my personal life and it's still a crap shoot once you've known them for years, much less a stranger on the side of the road.
That is a very tricky situation there. I could see almost anything escalating his anger (if I understand his demeanor correctly). It's hard to deal with someone like that. Best to let the police deal with them instead. I like the idea of pulling away a little (if possible).
 
Yeah, I was definately thinking about pulling away - but this was a he-said, they-said, rear-end collision. Anything that I would have done that looked like I was fleeing the scene, homeboy would have mentioned to the police.

Hmmm... not sure I like the idea about systems-checking the firearm (but I understand what you are saying)... it could escalate their end of things into a lethal force confrontation. Believe me - this guy had a chip on the shoulder... and I apparently was the reason his life sucked, that day.

I remember reading somewhere, I think David Grossmans book, that an ineffective defensive counterattack often puts the assailant in the mindset of indignation and rage - IE, it is now you attacking them, and that is their justification for continuing the attack.

Lots of persons in my family spent some time in Vietnam - to the man, all say that if you have a gun out, it should be in the process of spitting bullets. Basically, make the decision to draw = make the decision to fire.

It was just impossible/unreasonable to apply that logic to this case ... and back to the more general discussion of firmly telling them to keep their distance ... if they continue on towards you, for most of us, they are demonstrating the intent to harm, but is it definative at that point whether they are intending to use the means to do harm? IE - I would have been shooting an unarmed man over what was (in hindsight) a chest-thumping exercise after a fender bender...?
 
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