Suicide at the range

[pax]

Braz,

What an awful story. I'm glad you and your friend are both doing okay.

As someone who has experienced profound depression at times, I understand what a terrible temptation suicide can be. And because I understand depression and the selfish nature of the urge to suicide, I have both sincere sympathy and utter condemnation for anyone who would go that route.

Moderator's note: This is a highly emotional topic, but let's try a little harder to keep it on the high road even so.

pax

A suicide kills two people . . . that’s what it’s for. -- Arthur Miller

 

[Steve Smith]

bigjim, that was not an attempt at humor. I'm still the insensitive person I've always been. At least regarding suicide. I am going through some things in my life that would have already had others leaping to their death or making a mess in a shooting range. If I can get through, anyone can.

I - will - not - give - up.


BTW, *** does me being a mod have to do with being able to speak my mind? If pax or runt want to edit my post or speak to me about it, they're welcome to. My opinion does not have to be popular to be acceptable.

 

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

There have been a few comments about suicide being a permanent solution to temporary problems. It ain't always so.

Some people do have legitimate reasons for wanting to end it. Terminal medical conditions, that will end only in pain, humiliation, and emotional and financial stress for the entire family, for instance.

That said, firearms are a lousy way to do it. Making one's move at a range is a particularly wrongheaded thing to do.

- pdmoderator

 

[Quartus]

I have both sincere sympathy and utter condemnation for anyone who would go that route.

That's not a contradiction. And it expresses my feelings well. Drjones said something about it being the ultimate act of selfishness. Bingo.

In high school, one of my brothers was back at school after being out for a while following the death of his best friend. (Fell asleep at the wheel.) He was late to gym. As he was coming out, some bozo plastered himself all over the gym wall. Motorcycle at 50 MPH or so + concrete wall = mess. My brother was right there to see it.

He's never been the same person since.


Oh, the bozo was upset at breaking up with his girlfriend.

 

[QuarterBoreGunner]

I'll chime in here:

When I was managing an indoor range we had three suicides over the space of seven years; leaving aside the question of whether or not suicide is an "answer" or not- I can tell first hand that doing it in a public place like our range, is a completely selfish act and has a tremendous long term effect on the people that witness it and then have to deal with it afterwards. If you want to kill your self, dammit, find a bridge or something- just please please please don't bring your problems into my business and make me a part of them.

Weird observation - one of the gentlemen that decided to check out on our range rented his firearm, a Colt Anaconda .44 6" barrel, then walks back to the ammo counter where I was and inquires as to what the "most powerful hunting ammo" we had. I pointed out a 20 round box of Hornady 300 grn. XTP ammo that we kept on hand for the local wild pig hunters that use handguns. He turned it down saying it was too expensive, decide on some generic Federal red box 240 grn. Bear in mind that on our range we kept a tab running and you paid for everything when you checked off the range.

After the county coroner collected the guy and we were cleaning up the mess it occured to me "What the hell? Why did he pass on the Hornady? IT WASN'T LIKE HE WAS GOING TO PAY FOR IT!

Never understood that.

Braz, that's a messed up thing to have to witness; I hope you and your new shooter friend are ok.

 

[Frohickey]

Great.

Another dead guy that Sarah Brady and her ilk will say was killed with a handgun.

Why can't these people commit suicide by being Saddam's human shields? Or commit suicide by being the one to take out Saddam with a butter knife, at least, his family will get a few million dollars for his death at the hands of Saddam's bodyguards.

 

[Russ]

Too bad this guy was so desperate and empty. Anyone who would do this to themselves is not playing with a full deck. Since I don't know why he did it, nor does anyone else, it's beyond my capabilities to judge his state of mind. I think it was unfortuanate that he had to do it in a public place. Better to have done it in private if that's what he had to do. There's a fine line between sanity and insanity for a lot of people. To do this, you have to be insane, at least momentarily, and that's all the time it takes.

 

[WyldOne]

I agree with spacemanspiff and M1911. And I think it's virtually impossible for any of us to say what is "never" the answer for someone else.

Ever notice how this society deals with sadness? It doesn't. Men get sad, but if they cry or show any emotion other than anger, they're called sissies or, worse yet, "girls". And, for people of either gender, grieving the loss of a loved one has socially regulated time limits. Some people expect the survivors to be "over it" barf: ) within a matter of months.

There's just not enough ways to channel sad/angry emotions these days, at least I feel that way.

With all that said, I think this is one of the saddest threads on Earth.

 

[Oleg Volk]

If anyone here ever feels like checking out or just plain lousy, drop me a PM or an email and we'll talk. I've phoned folks on TFL and THR before -- people are here to help each other.

 

[Drjones]

That is a great gesture, Oleg.

Count me in.

I love to talk, and am good with people.

I offer my friendship and support to anyone who may want or need it.

PM me and we can talk on the phone.

I'm sure that many people here would do the same.

 

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Oleg and DrJones; you're good people.

 

[Johnny Guest]

Yes, there's a lot in life that doesn't make sense - - -

S_O_Laban’s response earlier about,

had a friend try to commit suicide. He took an old 22 rifle . . . put the gun to his head and squeezed the trigger, BANG. He did not die, he was not even wounded. The bullet, after inspection was found lodged in the barrell. He took this to be a sign from God that his time was not up and went on to a good life.

I’m glad it sometimes works out that way. But that story reminds me of another - - -
About 30 years back, I was dispatched on a call. Man called from a business trip, fearful for his wife’s safety. Please go to our house. If she doesn’t answer the door, break in. Verification call, relative recognized his voice. I went into this very nice, well furnished, house, and found the woman sitting on the bed, slumped, small amount of blood, pistol in lap. She was cold, so I waited for the ME’s field agent. Plenty of photos later, he handed me the revolver, a cheap RG12.
The really chilling thing for me was that just before the fired shell, there was another, loaded cartridge, with a good firing pin mark on the rim. Oh, wow. She pulled the trigger once and it didn’t fire. She’d had a second chance. On previous suicide calls, I had wondered if there is time–at the speed of thought– for the person to think, “Wait, wait! I didn’t mean it!†Well, this poor woman really meant it. She pulled the trigger a second time.

Say what? Does this one still bother me? Why do you ask?

Johnny

 

[bigjim]

Steve Smith Moderator said: BTW, *** does me being a mod have to do with being able to speak my mind? If pax or runt want to edit my post or speak to me about it, they're welcome to. My opinion does not have to be popular to be acceptable.

Simple, when you accept a leadership role your held to a higher standard. A moderator should be able to demonstrate a great degree of self control, kindness, and set a example. Other wise why should he be a moderator? I could never be a moderator because I am mean and vulgar. However I salvage a shread of self respect by admitting it.

Take Bill Clinton for example. Many men would accept oral sex from a pretty co-ed and should not loose their job if they were say a cab driver or a meat packer. However when the Married President of the United States does it in the Oval office that is a problem.

Another example is your use of the *** letters. We all know what that means. So it is no different than if you spelled it out.

I think I have answered your question.

Now just for fun let me see If can tie this to the thread. Some times Suicide may be ok. For instance, ritual suicide like the Japanese seppuku has its place. When Warrior or servent looses his honor and brings shame to his master its is both honorable and acceptable to kill himself to regain his status.

If you think about it being a forum Moderator is much like being a Servent to a great and honorable Lord. I think for you Steve Seppuku may be a bit extreme. But consider another alternitive
"jisatsu". This is much less painful than sticking a knife in your own gut and dieing slowly. You only have to open a major blood vessel and quickly bleed out. Japanese men would do this when they came to a understanding that they would never be the man they wanted to be.

 

[CZ 75 BD]

My neighbor attempted suicide with a .38 to the head. He was blinded, deranged and a total burden on his family from that point. Never learned what drove him to it, but suspect it was fear of a wrongful death lawsuit about to be filed against him for an accident he caused. So many people are affected by every action we take. Pray for all the guy left behind, and pray that everyone realizes there is nothing so bad as to take one's own life.

 

[Steve Smith]

If you have a problem with me, do something about it. Complaining to me does what? Nothing.

You make several assumptions. You assume that being a mod keeps me from posting my opinion. You assume that mod status means that I hold the "moral high ground" on all subjects AND that I am apparently holding "lower ground" becuase of my position on suicide. Who made you god and gave you the ability to decide who is morally righteous? You assume that I have a "master" and there is some kind of "honor" involved here. Sorry, I am my own master and that is that. My opinion is not dishonorable. You assume that I did not excercise self control or kindness with that post. Oh brother, you should know what I wanted to say! If you take a look around and search my threads you will see that I am welcome here as a mod. You will also see that this is in fact one of the only topics that I can think of where I have such a "repulsive" point of view when compared to the majority. The other topic is letting released felons buy firearms. If I take a look around THR I see that you've done a great job baiting others and getting into silly little fights of your own. I won't throw fuel on this fire anymore. You may PM me if you wish, as you have avoided from the beginning. Good day.

 

[Spoonman]

Sorry to hear about your experience, Braz. Your reactions seem normal to me. I'd hate to think that another man's pain and desperate, hopeless act failed to touch any of us.

Clif

 

[TheOtherOne]

Suicide should equal Homicide

My sister-in-law shot herself in the head a few years ago. I'm pissed at her for it and have ZERO sympathy for her. She left behind a couple of kids and almost seriously screwed up her 11 year old son who basically worshipped and lived for her. Luckily my brother (they were divorced, by the way) stepped up to the plate and both kids are doing okay now.

A few years, before she shot herself and while she was still married to my brother, she "tried" to kill herself by od'ing on sleeping pills. At the time I wasn't sure how much of a legitimate attempt it was but she finally succeeded a few years later with a gun. I guess it just goes to show you how efficient they can be.

Honestly, I wish they would have locked her up and prosecuted her for attempted-homicide the first time she tried taking herself out! Then at least the kids could have grown up with my brother and not got all screwed up by their soon to be dead mother! Yeah, it's a far cry from what everyone is saying of how suicide attempts need to be treated with caution and counseling and all that. I've just got no respect for those that kill any person when it's not in self defense. To kill yourself is criminal in my opinion and should be treated that way by LE and the courts!

 

[rick458]

In My Humble Opinion
Suicide is an unfogivable sin, everybody speaks of the unbearable pain their loved ones are enduring,(and they certainly have all of my sympathy and compasion). but when a person kills themself, they cannot ask God for forgivness for destroying his temple, and they will spend the rest of eternity in pain and suffering,(in hell)
what they are leaving is far far better than where they are going.
everybody loses

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Rich,

If you believe as a Christian believes, suicide is not an unpardonable sin. Aside from the fact that you could say, "Lord, forgive me for what I am about to do," Christians believe that all sin, past, present and future was forgiven from the cross at Calvary. You need only to accept this to be saved. A Christian believes the only unpardonable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, i.e. slapping God's hands away and saying no thank you.

Moderators, sorry for the OT

 

[Quartus]

Drjones wrote:

I love to talk

We noticed, Jones! We noticed!






I guess that makes you like most of the rest of us around here!

 

[Byron Quick]

Suicide? Multifaceted subject. As a nurse, I can say this: there are many terminal illnesses that I have no interest in pursuing to their natural end...I'll check out first. I've told my doctors...in that event, give me lots and lots of morphine-as needed-until respiratory depression is achieved.

I've sat vigil with several people who had shot themselves after further treatment was deemed futile. Warning folks, just because you've shot yourself directly in the brain and have achieved a through and through wound...death might not be instantaneous. Like I said, I've sat vigil with several who took at least four hours to die and who knows how long it was before they were discovered. A particular nightmare of mine is that they were totally paralyzed...but conscious. Gives me the willies.

If I'm found dead of any type of trauma...it ain't suicide, friends. I don't care what the notes by my body says. It was coerced...bet on it. I've seen most ways of traumatic suicide. I wouldn't opt for any of them.

While I have compassion for the personal demons that drive folks to this, my basic attitude is "Think of it as evolution in action."

And that is why I could no longer function, with a clear conscience, as a psychiatric nurse and had to move to emergency.

There is a large measure of vindictiveness in many suicides towards their loved ones. As in committing suicide in a very messy way in a place and time where your closest loved ones (spouse, parents, or children) will find the debris. In many cases, this goes way beyond depression. Instead, in all too many instances, the suicide setting seems to be calculated to cause the maximum trauma to the suicide's closest loved ones. I have little sympathy for such suicides.

On the other hand, I have knowledge of suicides in which the people went to great lengths to avoid their families' discovering the body and to leaving a mess for anyone to clean up. One local guy timed local mail delivery and waited until his family was out of town for a night. He mailed a letter to the policed department. Early on the morning the letter would be delivered and a couple of hours before his family was due back...he drove to the location in the woods noted in the letter, left his car, and shot himself in the heart. Personally, I respect the lengths to which the man went to minimize distress to all concerned. This does not mean that there was not distress but he made major efforts to minimize that distress.

 

[mercop]

I just taught my block of instruction on Stress & Suicide at the police academy yesterday. I am a negotiator trained on both county and federal levels with several real life call outs under my belt. You could fill volumes with what I don't know but... like someone else said suicide is a permenant solution to a temporary problem. It is a very logical decision to the person. My job sucks and I can't pay my bills. I can A-Get a new job. B-Cut down on expenditures. C- kill myself. Not logical to us but it is to them. If God forbid you have to deal with a suicidal person. Ask them is they want to kill themself. Contrary to popular belief this will not put the idea in their head. Then try to find out what made them snap today. Most likey something small. Then try to reset their circuit breaker and get them help. Now that the weather is breaking look for an increase of suicides. They do not go up during the holidays contrary to popular wisdom.

 

[Stopdropnroll]

According to the last set of figures that I read. ( a national range masters assc.) There will be one suicide at every range in the United States every 7 monthes. Remove Nevada from that and the figure drops to one suicide every 11 months. (still far to many)

As firearms background checks and waiting periods increase, we have simply moved the suicidal person from the pawn shop and gun store to the rental range.

As a person who has also been a witness to a firing range suicide I can remember many of the emotions and feelings you are likely experiencing...I am very sorry that your shooter and you had to be unwilling witnesses.

Keep the lines of communication open between your shooter and you open....I remember one of the first things I did upon returning home was to post a message simularly to yours on "GT", my own way of sorting the matter out I guess. In hindsight it was pretty theraputic.

Best of luck, Consider my e-mail box always open to you.

SDnR

 

[TearsOfRage]

Would you guys call a paraplegic selfish, cowardly, etc. because they didn't jump up and get to work, do chores, run errands etc.?

Then what about people's whose brains just don't work right, such that they simply don't have the mental and emotional strength to cope with the difficulties in life that most of us can handle? Why is it so hard to believe that some people are just plain not as tough as you are?

I had a close friend who commited suicide, and while I might have selfishly tried to stop him if I had been there, I don't think he necessarily made a bad decision. Why should he have to suffer and struggle through a whole lifetime just to make other people happy?

For folks who supposedly are in favor of personal freedom, you sure are quick to tell others what not to do.

 

[Oleg Volk]

A note to a couple of folks who are friends in real life and on THR: NOW do you see why I check up on everyone I care about regularly and why I freak out if you start hiding from your friends? If life sucks, don't hide out and let depression feed on itself.