SWAT team shoots suicidal Fla. student

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Standing Wolf said:
I'm sure the assault lawyers are already putting the finishing touches on the law suits against the police department for using excessive force, failing to consider the youth's age, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Well... a swat team vs one armed teenage individual inside the bathroom... (presuming with a real gun)

lethal force justified?

swat has so many items they can deploy. Flashbangs, teargas, stingers (grenades with rubber balls), tasers... but they went all out and used the deadliest force in their arsenal. Hah, "smart"...
 
pharmer said:
Point is it was not a firearm. I have an airsoft USP. It don't look much like the real thing. But if someone pointed it at me suddenly in a high stress environment such as today's, I'd cut loose and feel bad later. Definitely SBC .02$ Joe

Some airsoft pistols look amazingly realistic. One of these photos is my Springfield Armory 1911A1 in .45acp. The other is an airsoft 1911A1 I purchased from an Internet dealer. Could you tell which was real and which was the toy during the split second you'd have to decide to shoot/not shoot?

01my1911.jpg

airsoft.gif
 
Gotta side with the cops on this one.

I've got to side with the police on this shoot. The kid had obviously made himself perceived as a threat before hand to get the cops called, then has what looks to be a handgun. I can monday marning quarter back this, but putting myself in their place makes it seem like a not unreasonable reaction.
 
1911 guy said:
I've got to side with the police on this shoot. The kid had obviously made himself perceived as a threat before hand to get the cops called, then has what looks to be a handgun. I can monday marning quarter back this, but putting myself in their place makes it seem like a not unreasonable reaction.
in addation to what you said i can add this. cop sees what appeares to be a legiment threat kid raises gun twords officer. officer reacts in accordance to training and drops the kid. the cop did right with what he saw it was a good shoot. i just feel sorry as hell for the cop my prayers go out to him that he will be ok but i doubt he will. this will change his life in ways i cant imagine i fully expect he will wrop out of police work and i figure we will be reading of his death due to depression from shooting a kid and the monday morning quarterbacking the lawyers will pull and the making him relive this over and over again in court. it's bull of course but they will and this good cop will pay the price. it was a good shot.
 
The report said that the air pistol used a Co2 cartridge. There are a few airsoft pistols that do use them but no airsoft Beretta does. Daisy has a replica of the Beretta M92FS that comes in both 22cal and 177cal. American airguns almost never come with orange tips, atleast not the ones have seen anyways.
 
Here's the story from CNN today.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/13/teen.shot/index.html
====================================================

Deputy shoots teen wielding pellet gun
Teen painted weapon to make it look real, sheriff says


Friday, January 13, 2006; Posted: 8:12 p.m. EST (01:The Seminole County sheriff said his deputies thought this pellet gun was a 9 mm handgun.

The student is on "advanced life support" at Orlando Regional Medical Center, Sheriff Don Eslinger said, adding, "It was a terrible situation."

Eslinger said that the student, Christopher David Penley, painted the brightly colored tip of the pellet gun black to make it look like a real gun.

The sheriff's deputy was a member of the SWAT team and shot the eighth-grader only after the student raised the gun and threatened officers, Eslinger said.

The shooting occurred about 9:30 a.m. at the 1,100-student Millwee Middle School in Longwood, Florida. (Watch the aftermath of the shooting -- 1:54)

The suburban Orlando school was evacuated after the shooting.

The incident began when the teen's fellow students saw a gun in his backpack. The students were planning to tell a teacher about it, the sheriff's office said.

One of the students confronted the teen, who responded by pointing the weapon at the student and putting him in a closet, Eslinger said. The armed teen then fled, and a school resource officer and others gave chase.

Deputies were called to the scene, and the teen led them on a foot chase across campus to an isolated alcove area where police cornered him in a bathroom, the sheriff's office said.

Deputies tried to talk the teen into surrendering, but he refused to speak with them, Eslinger said.

"I'm going to kill myself or I'm going to die somehow," Eslinger quoted the boy as saying. "He refused to even comment. All he said was his first name. He did not drop the firearm."

The student eventually exited the bathroom and pointed the gun at his own head and throat. When he "raised the firearm in a tactical position and pointed it" at one of the SWAT team members, the officer "decided to use deadly force," Eslinger said.

"From what the deputies explained to me, (the teen) was suicidal," the sheriff said.

Florida Department of Law Enforcement investigators, who respond any time an officer fires a gun, determined the teen's weapon was an airsoft pellet gun, which shoot BBs or small paintballs, Eslinger said.

Authorities showed the gun alongside a real 9 mm handgun, and there appeared to be little difference between the two.

The teen's motive was not clear, but authorities were looking into some things from his past, Eslinger said without elaborating.
 
Looks like a $20.00 springer from Wal-Mart, alittle hard to tell at that angle. I'm sure it's not a gas gun because there isn't a brass charging valve on the bottom of the magazine.
 
I'll say it again. I came within a hair's breadth of drawing on an airsoft just a few weeks ago...

My brain was drawing but my arm hadn't moved yet. It looked pretty real to me.
 
He is a kid....so what! He did a grown up thing.

Less lethal force I don't see an option here. For one, the gun may have looked real. Second, even if it was an airgun, if discharged and the BBs hit specific pressure points on the hostage's body at oint blank range, that would cause SERIOUS DAMAGE possibly death.

Less lethal for is in place when thier is little chance of death accuring if the suspects action escilate.

The suspect obviously wanted to hurt himself and his peers. He pointed the gun at the police. With a slip second to make a desicion they fired thus hitting the suspect.

With the fact that the gun looked real in mind, also they did not know when/if he was going to discharge his weapon at them, thus possibly hurting them.

I dont see why you people are even considering less lethal force. It was justified. I mean if he was hold people hostage with a damn baseball bat or a knife, OK!

However, if a man breaks into your home, he has what appears to be a gun. As you investigate and you see him and he point is "gun" (real or not, but you cant tell) at you. Will you do the following:

  • Stop and get your taser so it will be less lethal becase thats the right thing to do.
  • Stop to contempate of the gun is real

No, as soon as he points the un at you, through your rights to self defence. Your instinct will say shoot, and you may.

I say this kid got what he deserves. Even if he was 12 or 13. Its all the same when you act like an adult.
 
Turtle I agree with your end point (about less than lethal being inappropriate in this case)
but it is obvious that you have not read 0r comprehended the articles posted on the subject.
 
Well the kid is dead now. If he had emotional problems he didn't really deserve to die. His demons got the best of him. I'm not trying to make an excuse for what he did.

I put up with being teased and bullied for five years, each year getting worse. For the first three years I was bullied because I had difficulty learning. I didn't fight back because I would get beat when I got home. The last two years I was bullied because my birth mother (not my real mother) simply didn't care to provide me with clothes plus I had more than one zit. At this point I would have wen't to jail if I fought back because I was in my mid-teens. The anger does build up inside and if the person can't handle it, the anger explodes. Thoughts of murdering those people did flow through my mind. Those thoughts pulsed through me like gusts of wind hitting you. At year five I wan'ted to take my Crosman 1008 air pistol to school for the sole purpose of dropping it on the desk in the office and asking to be expelled.
 
pharmer said:
Point is it was not a firearm. I have an airsoft USP. It don't look much like the real thing. But if someone pointed it at me suddenly in a high stress environment such as today's, I'd cut loose and feel bad later. Definitely SBC .02$ Joe
I have an airsoft Wilson Combat 1911. If I painted over or removed the orange tip on the barrel, I abslotely defy you or anyone on this forum to distiguish it from a real 1911 from a distance of 10 feet.

BTW -- the kid died.
 
ceetee said:
They may not know the difference between airsoft and a pellet gun.
I don't know the difference. My airsoft shoots pellets.

Are you using the term "pellet gun" to refer to a traditional BB gun that shoots .177" steel BBs?
 
Hawkmoon said:
I don't know the difference. My airsoft shoots pellets.

Are you using the term "pellet gun" to refer to a traditional BB gun that shoots .177" steel BBs?

Airsoft guns shoot 6mm plastic bbs. American bb guns shoot 177cal bbs. Pellet guns mostly shoot lead pellets and sometimes bbs.
 
Hawkmoon said:
I have an airsoft Wilson Combat 1911. If I painted over or removed the orange tip on the barrel, I abslotely defy you or anyone on this forum to distiguish it from a real 1911 from a distance of 10 feet.

I will:D

BTW -- the kid died.

Isn't that what I said above.
 
Just to illustrate a point. This is a pic of a kid with an airsoft Glock.



Sad situation all the way around. Feel really bad for the cop as this is going to be a hard thing to live with.
 
The family attorney is now saying that the father had told the police it was just a replica prior to the shooting and tried to gain entrance to the school but was forced back and ignored.

While I can understand the confusion between a painted replica and the real 92, I do question whether sending a small army of officers in response to the threat was a wise decision. Schools and police departments have gotten so geared up since Columbine, their responses tend to take on a life of their own. Whether or not that led to the shooting remains to be seen, but it does appear there were too many layers of red tape between the man who knew it was just a replica pellet gun and the officer who shot the kid.
 
Stinkyshoe said:
Specifically, I meant that tv on numerous programs act out various dramatic situations with someone commiting or attempting to commit suicide. Although there is a disclaimer for the appropriate age that can handle this, I question whether or not such shows are suitable or anyone(I am not suggesting censorship). I know personally such shows benefit me none, I doubt they are useful for anything.

Blaming TV dramas is one tiny step away from blaming firearms. Watch yourself.
 
If YOUR kid was somewhere inside that school, and all you knew was some nutcase was running around pointing guns at people, YOU would want this to end EXACTLY the way it did.

I know I would.

You pull this crap at a mall, well there are grownups there, maybe one has a CCW, maybe not, who knows.
You have adults that can think somewhat and deal with it.

You pull this in a school you've violated a whole other level. You can guarantee that in a school no one is in a position to fight back, so the response should be overwhelming.
 
The family attorney is now saying that the father had told the police it was just a replica prior to the shooting and tried to gain entrance to the school but was forced back and ignored.
In all fairness all the father could tell the police was that the boy owned an airsoft repligun not that that was what was in his hands.
Also as I understand it the school was locked down with students still trapped inside. How did the father know for sure that it was his kid
 
I wish I would've met you
now it's a little late.
what you could've taught me
I could have saved some face
they think that your early ending
was all wrong
for the most part they're right
but look how they all got strong
that's why I say hey man, nice shot.
what a good shot man.
a man
has gun
hey man
have fun
nice shot
now that the smoke's gone
and the air is all clear
those who were right there
got a new kind of fear
you'd fight and you were right
but they were just too strong
they'd stick it in your face
and let you smell what they consider wrong.
that's why I say hey man, nice shot.
what a good shot man.
a man
has gun
hey man
have fun
nice shot.
I wish I would have met you
I wish I would have met you
I'd say
nice shot.
:banghead:
 
sad for the parents of all involved. I have to side with the cop on this one though. After all the school shootings in America, the police just have to react quickly. Can you imagine the media circus if the kid had killed another student? After reading a lot on this, it seems if its nothing more than 'suicide by cop'. The kid got what he wanted, whether he "deserved" it or not.
 
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