Taking a gun from a robber?

[Deavis]

Cortez, the people in your senario must have the reaction time of a pizza if you can what you say you can do. Sorry, but the "disarm the perp" is a party trick at best IMHO.

You have obviously never been on the receving end of a disarming move. I'm not a martial artist and am not an expert but when I was 17 I told my friends father, a Customs Agent, that disarming someone whith a gun was pure BS. He said, ok, let's see if you can shoot me before I take your gun. He unloaded his carry gun, put the hammer back, stepped back 2 paces and said, I'm going to take your gun from you before you can drop the hammer.

The lesson was quick, very illuminating, and incredibly. I told him to put his hands up so he started to put up his hands up and said, " Oh please don't shoot me, please, I'll give you anything..." Then my wrists were on fire, the gun was flying across the room and my arm was on its way into a nice arm lock. Now, if he had wanted to really hurt me, there was no doubt in my mind he could have because my eyes and head were following the gun and registering the pain in my wrists. Your instant reaction will not be to counter because you are too busy registering the loss of the weapon, plain and simple.

I thought, "Come on, he is a 46 year old man, I can take him. My reaction time is quick, I'm an athlete, and pretty fast." Boy was I wrong. I didn't make that mistake in my CCW class when the instructor picked me (I guess they pick the biggest guy for the same move) and I kept backing up as he moved forward. I'm not falling for that one again was my immediate thought and naturally backed away.

Don't believe me or Cortez, fine, keep thinking you are Superman. It just isn't true and it is a simple matter to prove. Just stop by your local martial arts place and ask them to make a fool of you. You have no chance against a well trained person intending to disarm you and if you doubt that you are ignorant of the technique or in deinal about human reaction times. Somebody posted the FBI (I think) study on a person drawing and shooting v. a person with a bead already. Chances were 50/50 against a regular person, not a trained pro IIRC.

 

[JMusic]

Weapons take ways are relativlely easy. As hso and Pax have stated they are actually almost assured and certainly better than trying to draw and shoot. First thing you do is get out of the line of fire by usually stepping to the side and in. Push and grasp the weapon away from you then immediately turn the weapon in while grasping with your other hand. This can be done much faster than you can pull the trigger. It is action vs reaction. If done properly as others have stated you will have a discharge to the side or into the BG . Long guns are easier yet, in my opinion bladed weapons are the biggest worry.
Jim

 

[Jrob24]

Cortez could you describe the technique in detail please?

 

[Cortez]

Jrob24

It's easier to show you than explain it but I'll try.

With a pistol, the technique involves you using both your hands. If you are right handed, then your left hand grasps the butt area of the pistol and simultaneously your right hand grabs the barrel and keeping your left hand still, you force the barrel around to your left very quickly and then pull the gun towards you with both hands. With a little practice this can be done very quickly. It simply takes commitment and no hesitation.

This will cause, in most cases, the assailant's trigger finger to fire the weapon and at the same time, to break it. You complete the action by ramming your fist still carrying the gun, hard into his adam's apple. If you want to make absolutely sure that he loses interest in proceedings, you gouge out his eyes with your thumbs while he is choking.

For cases where the assailant is wielding a rifle or shotgun, the method changes in that you "sweep" the barrel to one side or the other with your forearm, then grab the barrel and butt simultaneously and lever it towards you. You get very high leverage and you can damage the shooters hand quite badly in consequence. Once you have the rifle/shotgun either shoot him with it or butt stroke him in the temple of the adams apple area - real hard.

People who aren't comfortable with the idea of doing nasty things to others would be better off being a compliant victim.

 

[K-Romulus]

With a pistol, the technique involves you using both your hands. If you are right handed, then your left hand grasps the butt area of the pistol and simultaneously your right hand grabs the barrel and keeping your left hand still, you force the barrel around to your left very quickly and then pull the gun towards you with both hands.

I take it the web of the right hand between thumb and index finger is below the barrel while you are grabbing?

The left hand basically grabs the part of the perps hand that is holding the gun butt?

 

[Cortez]

K-Romulus

Yes to both of those points. Sorry - I didn't think it was essential to state that you shouldn't put your hand over the muzzle of the gun.

As I said, it all sounds very awkward but it is in fact a natural movement and can be done very fluidly and rapidly. If you ever practice it with a friend, be careful you don't harm him/her. It is easy to do.

 

[K-Romulus]

thanks!

The only other disarm move I have seen is grabbing the pistol's barrel/slide like you would a doorknob and twisting like you would to open a door . . .I never liked that idea . . .

 

[Protector]

Okay, I have 26 year of Martial Arts training in various systems and I am currently an FMA instructor, a system with extensive disarms. I have 17 years experience as an LEO and I am the Sheriff's Departmets defensive tactics instructor, with specific training in disarms and weapons retention.

The semi-fancy 'twist the gun out of the guys hand' techniques are technically quite effective and almost fool proof. In practical ,situational training it doesn't quite work that way. At a recent Defensive Tactics instructors refresher we worked on disarms under training conditions, i.e. you are standing in front of me and you try to point a gun at me or stick a knife in me or swing an impact weapon at me. We got pretty good at the various tehcnical disarms, involving wrist grabs, weapon redirection and weapon removal.

Having the resources of the State Training Acadamy allows us to take it a little farther. On the second day we put on FIST suit body and head protection. We had the chance to hide training knives in various pockets and we were able to rotate a couple of Simunition firing Glocks among us. We went outside and worked in various places with uneven ground, obstacles, etc. We were actually doing drills that did not involve disarming, but we were allowed to draw a knife or Sim Gun and try to shoot or stab the guy we were working the other drill with, at any time during the drill, with either hand. The idea was to simulate the classic police interview, where you have to be close enough to talk to the suspect and take his I.D. The suspect then reaches back and produces a knife or gun at arms length, instead. Every one of us got shot and/or stabbed at least once.

When the arm is moving in an unpredictable fashion and you are sweaty, excited and the attackers wrists are not obviously exposed, a lot these techniques go out the window. Several of us with martial arts experience were able to do some succesful 'weapon takeaway' disarms, but by the end of the training session we had revised our initial reaction drill from grabbing for the weapon or weapon hand, to deflecting the attacking limb away from your body and smashing the face as hard as you can, stunning the control center first. The disarms then became much easier again.

Only you can judge, in a given situation, if and when to try a disarm...but you must have an understanding of how it really works, beyond static dojo training, to properly make that decision.

 

[JMusic]

Protector that has been taught for decades. Until recently it was very hard to actually pactice. I have taken weapons away. Speed and surprise are your best friends. If there is any resistance in these techniques then you do "something" to preocupy the aggressor. That can be about anything that hurts. Good input.
Jim

 

[Cortez]

Protector

I can agree with most of what you have written. The training that I was involved in was somewhat more realistic than ritualised classroom stuff.

I could dream up scores of scenarios that could get you killed. Perhaps your crooks are more sophisticated than ours, but ours are none too bright or inventive.

Frankly I'd always choose to go down fighting than be a victim.

 

[ctdonath]

your left hand grasps the butt area of the pistol and simultaneously your right hand grabs the barrel and keeping your left hand still, you force the barrel around to your left very quickly

You're gonna die.

Preface: I'm certified to teach police-type weapon retention, which includes disarms.

What kind of gun is it? More often than not, a semi-auto.
What happens when you rotate the gun in that direction with his hand on the trigger? It's gonna fire. He's probably gonna fire anyway with you attempting that stunt.
Where is the bullet going to go? At extremely close ranges, that very well may happen with you still in the bullet's path. If lucky enough to push it far enough to the side before it fires (and it WILL fire), you risk pointing it at whoever is with you. Disarming a perp by shooting your wife doesn't fly.
What happens when you grab the front end of a semi-auto, hold it tight, and it fires? The slide moves back very fast, while the frame does not move. Your hand suddenly experiences a severe shearing force. The front sight is going to rip through the main contractor muscles in your fingers. The slide will at least partially pull out of your grip. Muzzle jump is going to momentarily traumatize nerves. Your ears and face are going to be on the wrong end of muzzle blast. After discharging, the slide will slam forward again, pushing your hand partially if not completely off the gun, and quite possibly breaking some of your fingers that slipped off the slide during cycling.
What if it's not a semi-auto, but is a revolver instead? There's a good chance it will be a short-barreled gun, which means part of your hand will wrap around part of the cylinder. When it discharges, two narrow jets of propulsive gasses and lead/copper shavings are going to quickly & violently remove a significant quantity of skin from your hand.
What happens if, while attempting to use fine motor skills in a situation detrimental to fine motor skills, you miss? He shoots you. You're trying to grab & manipulate a small object at a moment when you're experiencing serious fear and adrenaline - not condusive to grabbing small things. You may succeed - but consider that if you miss, if you fail, he will shoot you.

The technique you describe is NOT taught in serious defensive schools. It is, in fact, described as the wrong thing to do because there's too many ways it will go wrong and get you killed.

Most of the time disarms are taught and practiced, the "attacker" stands there staticly, giving the "defender" time to think about what he's going to do, then do it without complication. You can't even practice the given technique fully lest you break the other guy's finger. In reality, you're going to be stressed out of your mind, and he will probably be moving both himself and the gun erratically. Trying to hit a moderately small target with both hands with a precise sequence of events is hard when he's moving, you're moving, it's moving, and you're suffering a massive adrenaline dump. You can miss. You miss, you die.

Disarms, as taught by those who live by the gun, are considered a last-ditch "you're gonna die if you don't try" borderline-suicide move. I have grave concerns about gun disarms being taught by those lacking serious gun-handling training, primarily because they view guns as static inanimate objects - as everyone on this board should be keenly aware of, when the trigger gets pulled, a gun is hardly "inanimate" but instead does several fast & damaging motions simultaniously, which can get you killed if you're on the wrong side of it.

Frankly I'd always choose to go down fighting than be a victim.

Don't misunderstand: "don't do X" does not mean "don't do anything". There are other things to do. Just don't prepare to do something stupid.

 

[dfaugh]

Different moves

by the end of the training session we had revised our initial reaction drill from grabbing for the weapon or weapon hand, to deflecting the attacking limb away from your body and smashing the face as hard as you can, stunning the control center first. The disarms then became much easier again.

This is more the way I've always been taught...One hand (left or right, depending in which hand the BG has gun in) grabs gun hand/wrist and moves it AWAY and DOWN...In the same motion you move (rotate) inside the BGs reach, and use any number of strikes, but the opposing elbow (the one not controlling the gun) to the throat is a favorite. You can also use the gun hand/arm as a lever to throw the BG down and complete the disarm, by continuing to twist as he's thrown. One of the keys is getting inside, up close and personal while the gun is now stretched out and away...Pretty much no danger of getting shot.

As someone said, it's much easier to show someone than it is to explain it, and there are multiple, similar ways to accomplish it.

 

[DunedinDragon]

The next time you guys try this technique in a real situation, please have your wife/children/other survivors come in here and fill us in on how well they worked...

 

[DRZinn]

Try this:

Say he's holding the pistol in his right hand.

- Grasp the butt of the pistol in your right hand. Alternatively, strike his wrist.

- At the same time, grasp the barrel/slide and push to your own right, rotating the pistol and pulling it out of his hand.

- As it comes out of his hand, pull your own right hand back slightly to grasp the butt in a firing grip.

- At this point you either shoot him as soon as your finger finds the trigger or you are immediately opening distance.

I don't know if I'm explaining it well, but this way it's not getting caught on his finger and firing. It's taking advantage of the weak side of his grip to pull the pistol from his hand. It can be done very quickly and easily with little training. SO quickly that the attacker has no time to fire. Try it.

Caveat: It won't work if he has both hands on the gun.

 

[DunedinDragon]

I don't know if I'm explaining it well, but this way it's not getting caught on his finger and firing. It's taking advantage of the weak side of his grip to pull the pistol from his hand. It can be done very quickly and easily with little training. SO quickly that the attacker has no time to fire. Try it.

Would it be okay to try it with a loaded weapon just to see how well it works??

 

[DRZinn]

Put the sarcasm aside for once and try it.

 

[pax]

DunedinDragon ~

Sure, just make sure it is loaded with Simunitions or Code Eagle or Airsoft ammunition.



Protector ~

Good input, and good points. I've done a little bit of work with suited-up* folks doing role plays of various types or just messing around in the dojo, and absolutely agree that the standard disarms are radically different when they are performed in a dynamic environment.

Interestingly, many of the common disarms only work really well when the participants are both moving ... fast. You can force them to work when both of you are just standing there, but most are clearly designed to use the opponent's physical energy against him and that requires movement.

The thing that really has me fascinated about this is that I learned a list of techniques: if he does this, you do that. If he holds the gun this way, you grab it that way. However, after learning several different techniques, you begin to see the principles behind every technique, giving you a lot of different possibilities in more dynamic situations. If you end up rassling for the gun, you're never going to have your hand or foot positions where the techniques demand they be placed. But once you understand the principles, you've got a lot of leverage to do what needs to be done even if every one of the techniques is impossible at the moment.

All ~

(Personal opinion only, not opinion as moderator.) I'm personally quite uncomfortable seeing specific, step-by-step disarm instructions here on THR, and would greatly prefer to stay with a more generalized discussion about disarms.

Two basic problems with step-by-step instructions: first, verbal descriptions of physical acts often fall quite short of adequately describing what needs to be done. The description is often lacking crucial details, the reader's visualization of the technique is usually somewhat faulty, and it's just generally a bad idea to trust your life to some faceless stranger's descriptive ability. Reading most such descriptions, you simply aren't getting an adequate picture sufficient to perform the techniques yourself. There is absolutely no substitute for face to face instruction from someone who knows what he is doing and can physically demonstrate the techniques for you.

The second problem is that even when the description is absolutely complete and faultless (a very rare event!), there's no way to even kinda-sorta screen who is reading the information. Of course bad guys study this stuff too, in jails and out, but there's no good reason why I or anyone else on the side of the angels should make things easier for those who are not.

pax

* High Gear rather than FIST, though.

 

[DRZinn]

verbal descriptions of physical acts often fall quite short of adequately describing what needs to be done. The description is often lacking crucial details, the reader's visualization of the technique is usually somewhat faulty, and it's just generally a bad idea to trust your life to some faceless stranger's descriptive ability.

I agree, which is why I wasn't going to say anything until the other technique described looked so faulty that it would do more harm than good (see comments by ctdonath).

I specifically advised any readers to try it, meaning train for it, make it work for you, get it right.

 

[k_dawg]

indeed. it is much easier to disarm someone who you know does not have a loaded and working gun pointed at you, and who wants to shoot you.

 

[cliffstanc]

I'm personally quite uncomfortable seeing specific, step-by-step disarm instructions here on THR, and would greatly prefer to stay with a more generalized discussion about disarms.

With respect, I couldn't disagree more.

As for your first objection:

first, verbal descriptions of physical acts often fall quite short of adequately describing what needs to be done. The description is often lacking crucial details, the reader's visualization of the technique is usually somewhat faulty, and it's just generally a bad idea to trust your life to some faceless stranger's descriptive ability. Reading most such descriptions, you simply aren't getting an adequate picture sufficient to perform the techniques yourself. There is absolutely no substitute for face to face instruction from someone who knows what he is doing and can physically demonstrate the techniques for you.

...is certainly true, as far as that goes. But by this logic this means we should not discuss the specifics of any self-defense firearm techniques here on THR either. That's clearly an overreaction. It's usually stated outright (or at least it's implicit because it's been repeated so much over the years), in those threads that the discussion of various holster draws, point-shooting techniques, aiming stances, etc. is absolutely no substitute for range time and practice.

We're basically all intelligent enough here to know that reading <> doing. That doesn't mean that we don't gain useful knowlege by discussing things in detail with folks here, does it?

I certainly don't think so.

The second problem is that even when the description is absolutely complete and faultless (a very rare event!), there's no way to even kinda-sorta screen who is reading the information. Of course bad guys study this stuff too, in jails and out, but there's no good reason why I or anyone else on the side of the angels should make things easier for those who are not.

Again, I'm not trying to be insulting at all...but that's anti-gunner logic. They only look at the numbers of legally owned firearms that are misused, while ignoring the vastly greater number of times where legally-owned firearms prevent crime.

Similarly, you're concerned about the technically possible, but practically miniscule, chance that a "bad guy" is going to gain information from a thread on THR and use it nefariously. But why do you assume that outweighs the likelyhood that a "good guy" (who I hope you think make up the majority of THR readers!) will read the information here and, say, become intrigued enough to investigate further, maybe practice the techniques and save their own life?

And again, this objection also applies to basically everything we discuss here about personal safety. Do you object to threads where links to body armor sites are given, since someone visiting the link and purchasing armor might intend to reenact the North Hollywood bank robbery as opposed to providing for their own safety? And speaking of which, do you object to discussions of that robbery, where posters inevitably decry the lack of issued rifles and/or ability to make headshots that could have stopped the robbers...as such information could possibly be used to hurt police officers in standard-issue armor?

Ultimately, everything discussed here on THR that is helpful in increasing the safety or security of law-abiding gun owners - proper gun cleaning, ammo selection, firearm maintenance, and many other topics - has the potential to cause harm if someone with ill-intent uses that information to help them more effectively commit crimes.

Anyway, as you even said, this information (and much more) is already available in the criminal colleges otherwise known as prisons. Generally, security through obscurity...isn't. All it does is hurt those who should know these things, but don't. Like us.


- Cliff

 

[Art Eatman]

I gotta go along with the "can do it" bunch. It's not really a martial arts deal, really. I'll stipulate a distance of no more than around six feet between you and the pistol.

Look: You can't gain any control of the pistol before it goes Bang! Don't even try. What you can do as Step One is get your body out of the line of fire. You have that 0.2 second time-lag on your side. So you step to the shooter's strong side and forward as hard and fast as you can.

Step Two is to bring your hands up and grab the pistol pretty much any-old-how, raising it and his hand upward. Twist it up and to the shooter's strong side, breaking his trigger finger. After that, you're on your own for Step Three.

Think about musculature: You can't move your hand as rapidly out and down as rapidly as you can inward and up. Those out/down muscles are not as strong.

If he's holding the pistol down by his hip and stays some ten feet away, stick with saying, "Yes, sir." It's the arms-stuck-out type that you can own.

Art

 

[ctdonath]

Again: when you're breaking his finger inside the trigger guard, the gun will go off.

Now, how many here are willing to have a good solid grip on the barrel of a semi-auto when it fires? or covering the front of a revolver's cylinder? Think, in great slow-motion detail, what happens during that process.

I'm personally quite uncomfortable seeing specific, step-by-step disarm instructions here on THR, and would greatly prefer to stay with a more generalized discussion about disarms.

My training (thru instructor level) in weapon retention, including disarming, very specifically included an admonition to NOT present such information to the general unknown public - only to those who have been individually screened. This is a subject that criminals diligently study in prison; while generally not approving of "elite and secret knowledge", there are some things which should only be passed on to those who we reasonably expect will not turn it against us (directly or indirectly).

Additionally, such activities are indeed hard to explain in writing. While much of gun handling can and should be discussed openly, there are some things which are better done in person, and only with those who are specifically trusted.

If you want to learn disarming, go find a serious instructor thereof. I suggest the Lindel Method. Don't try this stuff at home, kids.

 

[Art Eatman]

ctdonath, given the circumstances, I'm not particularly concerned about holding the slide and frame of a semi-auto, nor around the cylinder of a revolver. While I expect the first shot to occur, there are reasonable odds that you'll control the weapon before that second shot can happen.

We're still only talking minor flashburns or minor bruising, not any incapacitation. And it beats doing nothing and likely getting shot.

I'm a little dubious that those who hold up the local mom'n'pops spend a lot of time monitoring THR...

Art

 

[cliffstanc]

My training (thru instructor level) in weapon retention, including disarming, very specifically included an admonition to NOT present such information to the general unknown public - only to those who have been individually screened. This is a subject that criminals diligently study in prison; while generally not approving of "elite and secret knowledge", there are some things which should only be passed on to those who we reasonably expect will not turn it against us (directly or indirectly).

Additionally, such activities are indeed hard to explain in writing. While much of gun handling can and should be discussed openly, there are some things which are better done in person, and only with those who are specifically trusted.

Aren't these two statements kinda contradictory?
"You shouldn't talk about it 'cause criminals might learn it."
"You can't learn it by talking about it."

(Unless in the first statement you really meant that you shouldn't let criminals actually train in the hands-on course your dojo/LEO training facility/whatever is giving, then...well, yeah. Not going to disagree there.)

- Cliff

 

[live2pleeze]

1858 .44 new model army

I need info in a 1958 remington replica .44 new model army. I got it of my friend with no paperwork, it's a blackpowder gun but I really don't want it how can I get rid of it?

P.S. Without falling in the wrong hands, dont know if it's worth anything