Tell Me About Kirst Konverters

[Blackpowdershooter44]

Hi all,
I am currently looking around at various conversion options for the Pietta 1858 NMA. I went to Old South Firearms and looked at their variety, and besides the Howell conversions, they have several Kirst Convertion cylinder options. One was the Pale Rider conversion, another was the model with the loading gate, and the third was a Civil War model.
Can I add a loading gate ring to, say, a Pale Rider conversion if I get one of those, or will it not fit because it's a different model?
What are the pros and cons of each of the three models?
I attached a link to the pale rider conversion
http://www.oldsouthfirearms.com/kir...pietta45alcpaleriderconversionassembly-1.aspx
Thank you

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Kirst are very high quality and work well. I've done two conversions using their Gated conversions and they are excellent. I would recommend that if you want the gated conversion just get one; the Pale Rider cylinder can be adapted to a loading gate- depending on your tools and level of skill. I do not know that you could simply use one of their breech-rings purchased separately. You could also simply cut a loading port in the breech ring, just don't point the gun up when cocking it. You should look on the Kirst website as well.

 

[Blackpowdershooter44]

I would recommend that if you want the gated conversion just get one; the Pale Rider cylinder can be adapted to a loading gate- depending on your tools and level of skill.

Thanks for the info. Two more questions... When you say it can be adapted to a loading gate, do you mean dremel out an opening so the cartridges can be pushed out on the gun like Mike Belvieau showed in his 1858 conversion video? Also, I noticed the civil war model had a safety notch, didn't notice that on the pale rider conversion, did I miss that? I don't want to get a 5 shot, and then there is no safety notch so now I'm loading 4 lol.

 

[AlexanderA]

For me, a prime consideration for any converter is being able to easily return the gun to percussion. When it comes to major alterations of the gun, such as milling out an opening in the recoil shield for a loading gate, you might as well get a factory "conversion" model, or just go with a SAA.

 

[whughett]

For me, a prime consideration for any converter is being able to easily return the gun to percussion. When it comes to major alterations of the gun, such as milling out an opening in the recoil shield for a loading gate, you might as well get a factory "conversion" model, or just go with a SAA.

That's been the point with me also. I use the Kirst on an Uberte 1860 Army and an R&D on a Rogers and Spencer also an early Howell on a Ruger Old Army. All were drop in and work just fine. As an aside the Colt is a bit more tedious to reload. Some how tapping out the wedge and pulling the barrel just isn't as quick as pulling the base pin on the Ruger or Spencer.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

Milling out (filling or Dremel or whatever) an opening in the recoil shield will not prevent you from converting the revolver back to percussion so don't let that be a reason stopping you from going there.
remember, those Dance Brothers replicas don't even have a recoil shield at all.
It might even make capping your percussion cylinder easier.

 

[AlexanderA]

It might even make capping your percussion cylinder easier.

By the same token the percussion caps could fall off more easily.

 

[whughett]

Personally I don't buy guns to just resell some day, but its a factor in the guns resell value. My three sons are going to want to sell some of this stuff some day. The gun shows and LGS's are full of hacked up firearms. No intention of stepping on toes but one should consider those thing's.

 

[Michael Tinker Pearce]

Thanks for the info. Two more questions... When you say it can be adapted to a loading gate, do you mean dremel out an opening so the cartridges can be pushed out on the gun like Mike Belvieau showed in his 1858 conversion video? Also, I noticed the civil war model had a safety notch, didn't notice that on the pale rider conversion, did I miss that? I don't want to get a 5 shot, and then there is no safety notch so now I'm loading 4 lol.

It's not hard to cut a loading port in the breech plate and recoil shield using a dremel tool with sanding drums, and buying the Pale Rider conversion on sale would save a lot of money over a gated conversion. All of my home-grown conversions use a loading port, and it works pretty well.

The Pale Rider does have a safety notch- if you look at the picture you linked you can see it at the bottom of the cylinder, so it is safe to carry five rounds loaded.

 

[Blackpowdershooter44]

It's not hard to cut a loading port in the breech plate and recoil shield using a dremel tool with sanding drums, and buying the Pale Rider conversion on sale would save a lot of money over a gated conversion. All of my home-grown conversions use a loading port, and it works pretty well.
The Pale Rider does have a safety notch- if you look at the picture you linked you can see it at the bottom of the cylinder, so it is safe to carry five rounds loaded.

Thanks, that cleared up some things for me.

 

[Blackpowdershooter44]

You know, I just realized what the difference is between the Civil War and Pale Rider conversions, the Civil War has fake nipples to make it look like a percussion cylinder and the Pale Rider doesn't. Now that I think of it, reenactors like to use those since it looks like they're shooting percussion.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

I have the pale rider version on a NMA, I can switch that same gun back and forth to percussion.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

By the same token the percussion caps could fall off more easily.

No, not a concern at all.
The caps do not rely on the recoil shield to keep them seated on the cones/nipples.
If your caps are loose and/or ride along or are some other way being held on by the recoil shield you're going to have problems.

 

[Blackpowdershooter44]

I just found out the Pale Rider is out of stock... I'll call Old South and/or Kirst tomorrow to see when they will be available again. Bummer

 

[Blackpowdershooter44]

I checked with Old South, and they were told by Kirst that the Pale Rider will not be available for 2-3 months. That being the case, I went ahead and ordered the Civil War model on sale at Old South in .45 LC. Can't wait to get it!

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Ooops. I was about to say:

Don't over look the six shot conversion cylinders marketed by Taylors.




https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/accessories/conversion-cylinders/1858-remington.html

If you want a six shot cylinder chambered for 45 Colt, this is the only game in town. All the others are only five shot. This is because the cylinder of the 1858 Remington is slightly too small to chamber six rounds without the rims over lapping. Ken Howell got around that by angling the chambers out ever so slightly at the rear, so the rims would clear each other. Less than 1/2 of one degree, and no it makes no difference at all as far as accuracy is concerned. Howell patented the idea, but at one point he sold the patent to Taylors. So when he set up his own company, he could not make any six shot 45 Colt conversion cylinders for the 1858 Remington. DO NOT BUY THE SIX SHOT CONVERSION CYLINDER FOR 44 COLT! This is a different cartridge, and will require using hollow based bullets to engage the rifling with modern 44 caliber bullets.

Regarding cutting a loading gate, one of the advantages of the Remington style Cap & Ball revolvers over a Colt is all you have to do to remove the cylinder to reload is to set the hammer to half cock, lower the loading lever, and pull the cylinder pin forward. You roll out the cylinder, reload, and reverse the process to start shooting again. No wedges to drive out, and you don't have to pull the barrel off. So simple that I never cared about a loading gate, it is so simple to reload a Remington this way. Besides, when shooting Black Powder cartridges in a Remington, they don't do very well as far as cylinder binding is concerned, so every time I reload I wipe off the face of the cylinder and the cylinder pin with a damp rag to keep the Remmies running smoothly.

 

[Blackpowdershooter44]

Howdy

Ooops. I was about to say:

Don't over look the six shot conversion cylinders marketed by Taylors.

https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/accessories/conversion-cylinders/1858-remington.html

If you want a six shot cylinder chambered for 45 Colt, this is the only game in town. All the others are only five shot. This is because the cylinder of the 1858 Remington is slightly too small to chamber six rounds without the rims over lapping. Ken Howell got around that by angling the chambers out ever so slightly at the rear, so the rims would clear each other. Less than 1/2 of one degree, and no it makes no difference at all as far as accuracy is concerned. Howell patented the idea, but at one point he sold the patent to Taylors. So when he set up his own company, he could not make any six shot 45 Colt conversion cylinders for the 1858 Remington. DO NOT BUY THE SIX SHOT CONVERSION CYLINDER FOR 44 COLT! This is a different cartridge, and will require using hollow based bullets to engage the rifling with modern 44 caliber bullets.

Regarding cutting a loading gate, one of the advantages of the Remington style Cap & Ball revolvers over a Colt is all you have to do to remove the cylinder to reload is to set the hammer to half cock, lower the loading lever, and pull the cylinder pin forward. You roll out the cylinder, reload, and reverse the process to start shooting again. No wedges to drive out, and you don't have to pull the barrel off. So simple that I never cared about a loading gate, it is so simple to reload a Remington this way. Besides, when shooting Black Powder cartridges in a Remington, they don't do very well as far as cylinder binding is concerned, so every time I reload I wipe off the face of the cylinder and the cylinder pin with a damp rag to keep the Remmies running smoothly.

You raise some very good points. I guess what was holding me back from getting a Howell conversion was that I wasn't sure if I would be able to carry 6 rounds safely with the hammer in the safety notch. In my 1858, the percussion cylinder has safety notches, but if I try to turn cylinder with my hand without bringing the hammer back, the hammer will move to a live round. I just don't want that to happen with a conversion.

 

[drobs]

I bought a Kirst Pale Rider Conversion back in 2001. At the time that was the only one available as the loading gate breach plate didn't exist. I still haven't cut the recoil shield for breach plate.
I think the true benefit of the Kirst over the other brands is being able to cut the recoil shield and load the cylinder on the gun. However, if you have no plans to cut the gun, the lower price of the other brands makes more sense.

Oddly enough, my Kirst conversion fits my 2001 era Pietta '58 but doesn't fit my 2018 Pietta '58 Sheriff.

 

[whughett]

Another point on conversion cylinders for hand loaders. Not all bullet designs will work if seated to the proper point on the bullet. Case in point my favorite 45ACP bullet is a 200 grain SWC, as a hand caster also ,I thought great, one bullet two cartridges, alas the semi-wad-cutter when seated to the correct point is too long and extends out side the chamber mouth and wont clear the barrel. A solution to that would of been to trim brass back to a Schofield length as a work around. I purchase a 200 grain version of the 250 grain RNFP set of bullet molds instead. . .

 

[grter]

"tell me about"

Under 12000 PSI no +P loads

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

"tell me about"

Under 12000 PSI no +P loads

that means low pressure cowboy type loads and such when using that new fad heathen smokey less powder. Just load up the cases with real black powder and let the fire fly.

 

[Blackpowdershooter44]

Time for a stupid question.
I noticed that Whugett says semi wad cutter bullets are to long and don't fit in his .45 acp conversion. The only cowboy loads my local gun store carries are 255 grain lead semi wadcutter in .45 colt, should those fit in the cylinder?
In fact, here is the link to the brand of ammo:
http://www.surplusammo.com/products/45-long-colt-255-grain-lead-swc-armscor-usa-50-rounds.html

 

[bannockburn]

Blackpowdershooter44

I just heard from Kirst Konverters (a.k.a. VTI Gun Parts), that they discontinued the Civil War conversion cylinder but that they should have the Pale Rider conversion back in stock soon and they will still be on special.

 

[whughett]

Time for a stupid question.
I noticed that Whugett says semi wad cutter bullets are to long and don't fit in his .45 acp conversion. The only cowboy loads my local gun store carries are 255 grain lead semi wadcutter in .45 colt, should those fit in the cylinder?
In fact, here is the link to the brand of ammo:
http://www.surplusammo.com/products/45-long-colt-255-grain-lead-swc-armscor-usa-50-rounds.html

I wanted illustrate that the conversion cylinders are a tad shorter than their single/double action center fire revolver counterparts. In my Kirst and Howell cylinders OAL of the cartridge is kept to a max of 1.547 inch. The 255 and 200 grain bullets as shown both have a crimping cannula and when seated and roll crimped the OAL is 1.545. The 200 grain SWC is designed for the 45ACP and has no crimping cannula. Standard 45C OAL is up to 1.600. The SWC shown in the cylinder will load and fire in the Colt SAA or my model 25 Smith and Wesson.

 

[drobs]

Time for a stupid question.
I noticed that Whugett says semi wad cutter bullets are to long and don't fit in his .45 acp conversion. The only cowboy loads my local gun store carries are 255 grain lead semi wadcutter in .45 colt, should those fit in the cylinder?
In fact, here is the link to the brand of ammo:
http://www.surplusammo.com/products/45-long-colt-255-grain-lead-swc-armscor-usa-50-rounds.html

I don't think it's that much of an issue for the Kirst 45 Colt conversion.
I'm shooting this stuff out of my 2 conversions:
https://www.sgammo.com/product/45-l...lt-200-grain-lead-bullet-american-cowboy-ammo

Plus have shot 255gr 45 Colt re-manufactured Cowboy ammo in my Kirst 58 conversion in the past.