The British Method...380/200

[telewinz]

Getting ready for Ohio's CCW thats starting in about a month, I've chosen a RELIABLE & PROVEN load for my S&W M36. It's my adaptation of the British 380/200 manstopper (.38 S&W). I have the .38 Special cases loaded with 2.9 grains of bullseye giving a velocity with my 200 grain lead roundnose bullet out of the 2 inch barrel of about 710 fps. This duplicates the the British 700 fps out of their 5 inch Webley Mark IV. The heavy slow moving bullet tumbles on impact, even Elmer Keith agreed it was an effective load and the British recorded complaints that the load was TOO effective. They had to reduce the bullet weight to 180 grains and use a FMJ to comply with the laws of war. If not that then I'll use my trusty P11.

 

[Gewehr98]

How stable is that 200gr bullet?

Is the rate of twist in an average .38 Special fast enough to handle that heavy a bullet these days? Tumbling inside the intended target isn't a bad thing. Keyholing on the way there is.


I've been toying with the idea of a 200gr bullet in my .357 Magnum Desert Eagle, too.

 

[telewinz]

VERY ACCURATE, I've been shooting it out to 75 yards. It's fun to have all that time to wait for bullet impact AND without much holdover.

Kynoch test batch of ammunition that had 200 grain lead bullets propelled by 2.8 grains of "Neonite" nitro-cellulose powder in a case dimensionally identical to the .38 S&W. This load produced a bullet which lost stability after target penetration, yet maintained a velocity in excess of 570 feet per second at 50 yards. This was deemed acceptable, and became the .380/200 service cartridge.

 

[AC]

There has been much debate on just how 'proven and effective' this load is on both this forum and the S&W forum (reloading section there). You might do some searches.

Many people think this load is mediocre at best and some of these folks have been shooting live targets.

Just out of curiousity, where did Elmer say it was an effective load?

 

[Jim March]

Not for me thanks. A 158 LSWC-HP+P is good stuff, and the new 135 Gold Dot looks promising pending more data.

The Winchester 130 Supreme +P is also good stuff.

 

[telewinz]

Does YOUR pistol bullet tumble?

 

[M2 Carbine]

telewinz

Have you chronographed that load?
710 fps sounds too fast out of a 2 inch barrel with 2.9 gr of Bullseye and a 200 gr bullet.

Using a Pact Chronograph and a 2 inch S&W Model 36 I get.
675fps with 3.6 gr Bullseye and a 158 gr SWC lead bullet
586fps with 3.0 gr Bullseys and a 158 gr SWC lead bullet

 

[Chindo18Z]

For what it's worth department:

I once saw the immediate aftermath of five people shot w/ 200 grn LRN from a 2" barrel; torso hits. Everyone fell down. Everyone was seriously wounded; one died. They were taken unawares (Situation White) by a nutcase vs. being in an adrenaline fueled "ready to fight" state. As I recall, all the rounds entered but did not exit.

 

[Tamara]

Heavy-for-caliber bullets are less quick to tumble in a target. If "tumbling" was important to you, I'd think a round-nosed 130gr FMJ moving at higher velocities would display that behaviour more pronouncedly, having a CofG that is located proportionally more rearward.

Out of curiousity, is Ohio going to restrict folks from carrying JHP's or something?

 

[telewinz]

4th edition Cartridges of the World

Page 176

The British figured out that the shocking power of this cartridge with a 200 grain bullet was about the same as their older .455 military cartridge. In actual combat this proved correct.

In the 38 S&W (380/200) velocity with the 200 grain bullet was 620 fps, 176 ft lbs.

To duplicate these ballistics out of a 2 inch barrel, I'm stepping up to a .38 Special to achieve the same velocity. I've always been a fan of the British method/solution to "manstoppers". Their is plenty of data/research to support their opinion although its grown out of fashion and the pages are a little yellowed. I'm willing to bet my life that a slow, heavy bullet that tumbles upon impact will be an effective defensive load.

 

[jc2]

Wasn't there a soft lead 200-grain .38 Special cartridge offering by Winchester called the "Super Police?" I believe it was considered quite an improvement in its time but was overshadowed by the .357 Magnum. Evideintly, it's not just a British concept (and it has had at least some LE use in the US).

 

[telewinz]

Wasn't there a soft lead 200-grain .38 Special cartridge offering by Winchester called the "Super Police?"

You are 100% correct. They also make a 200 gr loading for the 38 S&W which was considered very effective in its day.

During the 1920's the British conducted a series of experiments in the course of which they also fired handguns into cadavers and live animals. Their conclusion was that diameter of the projectile made less difference than weight. Weight and velocity were the most important factors and the velocity had to be low, not high. They concluded that a 200-gr. projectile traveling at an initial velocity of about 650 fps was ideal for good short-range stopping power. The reason for the low velocity was so that the bullet would expend its entire energy within the target and not carry on through. They adopted the .38/ 200 cartridge, really nothing more than the old .38 S&W (known as the "Super Police" when loaded with the 200-gr. bullet) in the middle 1930's. It was known officially as the .380 Revolver Mk I and had a 200-gr. bullet of .359" diameter that developed a muzzle velocity of 630 fps. It was to replace their .455 Webley which had a 265-gr. bullet with a MV of 600 fps. Both were used in WWII.

 

[Sean Smith]

So far we've got some ancient hearsay that this incredibly feeble load works worth a damn, and that's it.

Generally speaking, old science is not better than new science. Have you heard anything about Ether Theory of Light lately?

 

[Gewehr98]

There are some good 180gr bullets out there, though.

I've got a few spare around here from my IHMSA silhouette shooting days. I've never tried them in a .38 Special. Experiment time.

 

[telewinz]

The British know manstoppers better than anyone.

Has the speed of light changed in the last 500 years? They didn't know anything about bacteria 300 years ago but they still gave infected blankets to unfriendly indian tribes to infect them. That method worked pretty good too. Its all "ancient history" but it still applies.

 

[Old Fuff]

While the “stopping power†theory behind the development and deployment of the British .38-200 cartridge is highly controversial in some circles it is a fact that they didn’t start to adopt the Browning P-35 Hi-Power until 1945, and were still using .38 revolvers during the Korean War. The revolvers were extensively distributed through their Commonwealth where they are still in use today. After World War Two Smith & Wesson continued to supply .38-200 revolvers as the model 11. Over its whole history it is the second most common cartridge chambered into the Military & Police revolver, even though it was never cataloged for sale in the United States. If someone can repeatedly hit their target at 75 yards with a model 36, I for one wouldn’t tell them not to use it.

(Edited to add) Winchester listed its .38 Special/200 grain load at 770 FPS out of a 6 inch barrel. It would penetrate 7.5, 7/8" pine boards at 15 feet, which was the same as a 158 grain metal piercing bullet going 870 FPS under the same circumstances. (Winchester Ammunition Handbook; 1950)

To each his own …….

 

[Sean Smith]

Has the speed of light changed in the last 500 years?

No, it hasn't changed for about 10,000,000,000 years or so. But nobody knew what it ACTUALLY WAS until 1676 when Romer calculated it. And he had a big margin of error in his calculation. Nobody knew that light didn't need an "aether" to wave through at that speed until 1887. And nobody knew that the speed of light appears identical to all inertial observers until 1905. And nobody knew that you could slow down light waves until 1999 or stop them entirely till 2003.

And the .38/200gr bullet being a good stopper is hardly a certitude on par with the speed of light in a vacuum. Einstein you ain't, no offense.

 

[tbeb]

I once loaded some .38 specials and used a 200 gr. LSWC bullet. They did hit steel targets hard when fired from a Marlin lever action carbine. Anyhow, I don't use reloads for self defense. I've been reloading for 20 years. I use factory ammo for self defense. My choice is the +P 158 gr. lead hollowpoint. If I wanted a load with felt recoil of a 200 gr. bullet at 710 fps then I would use the Corbon +P+ 158 gr. lead hollowpoint that does 900-950 fps from a 2" barrel. It's discontinued but I know a shop that still has some on the shelves.

 

[HardCOR]

Sean Smith,

By slowing down or stopping light do you refer to black holes? Or something more esoteric.

 

[WheelMan]

Generally speaking, old science is not better than new science. Have you heard anything about Ether Theory of Light lately?

Bizarre you should mention that. This very night I heard (on a wacky right wing radio station) a fellow selling his book which affirms that very theory. He also debunks relativity (which he calls relativism). From listening to him for a couple minutes it appears that he was debunking it on the basis that it was "ridiculous." As near as I could tell he wasn't a physicist. or a mathematician. Or knew anyone who was. Or knew what such occupations existed.

 

[WheelMan]

HardCOR


The famous "C" or speed of light is actually the speed of light in a vacuum. Light is slowed down by the mediums it travels through. Light travels more slowly through our atmosphere and slower still through our oceans than it does in space. If you have the right medium you can slow light WAY down or even stop it. I'm not familiar with all the details but I believe the current slowing procedure involves passing a light beam through a noble gas sample that has been excited by a laser matrix.

Have you ever seen a nuclear reactor? Down in the water around the core you can see a blue/green glow. That's called Chernov (or Chekernov, something like that) radiation. Neutrons released by the reaction are traveling faster than the speed of light in water (that's still slower than the speed of light in vacuum) and these super fast neutrons create the glow, sort of like a light "sonic boom."

 

[tex_n_cal]

I would suspect the "effectiveness" of the cartridge had more to do with it being easy to shoot accurately, delivering a greater percentage of COM hits.

As controversial as the "one shot stop" data may be, some data is probably better than no data at all. Telling me Federal .45 Hydra-shoks average 90% gives me more confidence than decades-old anectodal stories.

Darn near everyone agrees the .357 Magnum with full tilt loads hits like the hammer of the gods, with fast moving expanding bullets. It's a little hard for me to believe that the .38/200 does the same thing, with half the velocity and no expansion. Yes, I understand tumbling is supposed to improve lethality, but I've had bullets do cartwheeling turns inside deer, exiting at odd angles - the deer ran like hell and was hard to find.

All that said, I would certainly find a .38/200 and interesting round to play with.

edit to add: if you ever do have to shoot a criminal (which I hope you don't), you can always claim you used extra-low powered ammo when questioned about it.

 

[telewinz]

And the .38/200gr bullet being a good stopper is hardly a certitude on par with the speed of light in a vacuum. Einstein you ain't, no offense.

You are correct on both points, Einstein did his best work at a young age. I haven't peaked yet. The slow heavy bullet belief is hardly new its just out of fashion. The 380/200 was tested in the field and found to be effective. A heavy, slow moving bullet was taking large dangerous game long before the 300 Winchester Magnum was ever heard of. It's called the 45/70. Same result but different path. Reactors, neutrons and blackholes accepted. Is there any bullet combination that is on a par with the certitude of the speed of light? The 32 auto with silver tips maybe?

 

[Tamara]

WheelMan,

It's "Cherenkov."

We now return you to the discussion of lousy handgun loads, wherein somone actually compares a .38 Super Police to a .45-70. Oh, well; it's his life.

 

[telewinz]