The case for JHP

[gallo]

I need help understanding the logic for using JHP instead of FMJ, especifically regarding the 9mm bullet.

Per the FBI’s document, “Handguns Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,” the risk to bystanders as a result of over penetration is negligible, temporary cavity does not wound, and knock down power is a myth. Moreover, the difference in permanent wound cavity between hallow and non-hallow point bullets is hardly measurable. The document concludes the two factors most directly related to stopping power, attributable to a bullet, are adequate penetration is bullet size.

So in light of the above conclusions by the FBI, what is the incentive to use a JHP over a FMJ? The FMJ achieves more penetration; the FMJ is more likely to penetrate a hand or arm and still reach the vitals whereas the JHP would expand prematurely.

Is the hallow point hype real or is it a marketing ploy by ammo makers fueled by gun writers. The FBI doesn't seem to think the hallow point is better. The military doesn't use the hallow point. So why do civilians and LEO think it's better to use hallow points?

 

[copaup]

Big holes bleed more than small holes. I've seen plenty of people shot and plenty of autopsy photos. FMJ wounds are FAR less impressive to behold. If you can be 100% sure of a CNS hit, then the FMJ is fine. If not, every little bit helps. A 9mm hollow point can expand to .65 caliber. Thats cutting a better than half inch wound channel, increasing both the odds of perforating something vital with a slightly less than perfect hit, and crushing/tearing more tissue and thus causing more rapid and profuse bleeding.

I assure you, the FBI does in fact issue JHP ammo to every agent in the field. It sure isn't because its cheaper. It works better. Millitary doesn't use it due to Hague accords. Millitary police on stateside posts are issued JHP ammo, because it works better and JAG has declared that stateside based MPs are serving a LE function and not covered by Hague.

IMHO, what you want is a bullet that penetrates about 12 inches in ballistic get, reliably expands through common barriers, is accurate and reliable in your gun. I've been on several shootings where overpenetration WAS a valid concern and a second person was hit. In fact that issue was one of the reasons we switched from 9mm to 40 sw in the mid 90s (stupid decision, we just needed to find a better load.)

I absolutely agree that there is no such thing as knockdown power, and consider overpenetration a secondary concern (be aware of your backgroud). All handguns basically suck when it comes to stopping people quickly. Hedge your bets as much as possible and plan to keep shooting until the threat stops.

 

[gallo]

Copaup,

So what bleeds more, a hole from a FMJ that traverses the entire body or a hole from a JHP that penetrates less but inflicts a wider wound channel. Wouldn't a FMJ by simply traveling more inside a body cause more damage?

Thanks.

 

[Geronimo45]

Fackler, IIRC, held that the single most important factor in wounding was penetration - getting to the vitals in the first place. Makes sense to me. After this comes the size of the wound channel - where diameter comes into play.

Current conventional wisdom seems to be that you want a round that'll go clear through the BG, and expand while doing so - thus making both entry and exit wounds, for maximum blood loss and maximum organ/tissue/muscle damage.
LEOs use HP ammo of one kind or other in their handguns... I can't think of a single PD in the US that doesn't use HP ammo.
Since the Miami Shootout, HP ammo's been reworked. It still expands nicely, but it penetrates deeper than the old stuff. Or at least it's supposed to.

Still, for the 'tiny' calibers, some folks prefer FMJs (.32s and .25s come to mind).

 

[gallo]

Copaup,

In you opinion, what is the best bullet weight for 9mm JHP round coming out of a 4" barrel. Does the 147 grain have enough speed to expand reliably or is the 124 grain a better choice?

Thanks.

 

[copaup]

From what I've seen, blood loss is greater from the larger wound track caused by the expanding jhp providing that it also provides adequate penetration, which most current jhp designs do. Internal blood loss is fine here, I doubt you'll be trying to track the bad guy by the blood trail he leaves. The wound track of a typical FMJ round from a handgun is actually smaller than the bullet as tissue is stretched and pushed out of the way rather than cut and torn. I've seen through and through torso hits from FMJ handgun rounds that were barely bleeding, at least externally. On the other hand, I've also seen a couple of people center punched with FMJs who were very dead and appeared to have gotten that way very suddenly. With rifle velocities this goes out the window as hydrostatic shock does start to become a valid wounding mechanism. Cheap Wolf 7.62 x 39 fmj makes horrific wounds at close range.

Again, you want an expanding bullet that provides adequate penetration. The FBI tests were designed to identify bullets that would penetrate to the vitals through intermediate barriers (arms, clothing, auto glass, etc.) and still provide sufficient expansion to maximize the resulting wound channel. If the bullet stays in the body, consider it a bonus. If it exits, thats another hole to drain vital fluids out of. The amount of blood loss needed to cause loss of function is much larger than most people really suspect. Big holes better than small holes, lots of holes better than one hole. Holes through the vital organs are priceless.

Real advice on how to prepare for a gunfight?

Realize that they suck and practice how to avoid them at nearly any cost.
Practice situational awareness and recognizing threats, to better avoid them.
Choose 1 handgun and find a reliable load, buy tons of that load and even more of a similar ball load to train with.
Shoot. Shoot some more. Shoot with one hand, two hands, your left hand, standing up, laying down, from a seated position, just keep shooting.
Learn some basic anatomy to learn where to put those shots.
Practice more to put those shots where you need them in a hurry.
Reflect back on rule 1 and hope to God you never have to shoot more than paper or gel.
If you have to shoot, shoot accurately, shoot fast, and keep shooting until they are down. Cover the threat until help arrives or you can safely retreat to (better) cover, he might get up.

Caliber wars and comparing ammo can be fun, but really what it boils down to is destroying as much tissue in the target as quickly as possible. JHP destroys more tissue than FMJ. Multiple rounds destroy more tissue than single rounds. Big bullets destroy more tissue than small bullets, provided you can score hits at the same rate. I shoot 9mm faster and more accurately than other calibers. My ammo of choice is currently 124 gr +p gold dot, because I can get it easily and cheaply and it is reliable, accurate, and passed the FBI protocals. If I can't find that load, I'm not real choosy as long as whatever I do find meets those same criteria. If the zombies come and I run out of everything but FMJ then I'll shoot FMJ and hope for perfect placement.

Good JHP>FMJ>bad JHP

All my opinion of course, your milage may vary.

 

[SA Friday]

your first question should be which of the various ammo choices shoots the most accurate out of the firearm. There are no current factory producted JHP's for defensive ammo that are 'best' per se, IMO. they all can expand and they all can fail to expand depending on the circumstances. Short of a magnum handgun caliber, the handgun power is strictly defensive. They are not made to shoot with a one-shot-one kill in mind, that is offensive. I've been to more than my share of autopsies on shooting victims, and I have yet to see where shot placement was less critical to the victim's death than the bullet type or caliber. Every autopsy involving 9mm or smaller, the victim died from a headshot or multiple wounds to the thorasic cavity and subsequent blood loss.

Shoot accurate ammo. shoot them until the thread is neutralized.

 

[DENALI]

Hi, here's a simple way of looking at it if you're serious. An object moving at a certain speed with a hollow tip, in theory put's on the brakes faster than one that is solid tipped, and thus, again in theory dumps more energy and in opening up creates more localised dammage, further because of this characteristic they tend not to overpenetrate and hurt or kill something or someone not intended.........

 

[copaup]

I am one of those who prefer FMJ once you start getting into the smaller calibers. I don't currently own anything smaller than 9mm, but carried silvertips in my 380 ppk and ball in my .32 acp tomcat when I carried them.

 

[Koos Custodiet]

Like Geronimo says, penetration is key. The second issue is the size of the hole. You want something that expands "as much as possible" without breaking up into little bits that don't penetrate.

But it all hinges on velocity. At rifle velocity, jacketed soft points expand quite nicely, while a hollow point would probably fragment -- depending on the target. Look at what "solids" do when they hit something big and hard like a buffalo.

Anyway. Newbies don't realise this, but there's a really really big difference between handguns and rifles. Shooting at steel plates with a handgun is fun, knocks 'em over. Most rifle rounds go straight through.

"High power" handgun : 357 Magnum : 158 grains at 1300 fps or so.
"Underpowered [1]" rifle : 30-30 : 150 grains at 2200 fps.

Anyway. That's why a hollow point works well in a handgun. It balances penetration with expansion at handgun velocity.


[1] Not me, but look at all the magnum rifle rounds out there. Deer are armour plated these days, everyone knows it...

 

[mljdeckard]

The truth is, a lot of the science flies out the window when the shooting starts. And Murphy's law applies: You can think this stuff to death, read 20 years' worth of back issues of Guns and Ammo, read all the books by the gurus, and when it comes time for you to throw lead or die, you will act, and none of those dang bullets will do what they did when the FBI shot them. They will fail to expand for no apparent reason. They guy will be wearing three thick layers, and you will hit him on the outside edge of them as he is turning away and the bullet will forget where it was supposed to go. The guy will have a steel plate hung in front of his chest. The trick to making handguns work is redundancy. As many of the best hits you can get as possible. Don't depend on one round of anything to do the job.

But all of this is why I wound up with a .45. Like someone had in their signature line a while ago: "A 9mm MIGHT expand, but a .45 WON'T contract." That, and I matured in my shooting to where I could handle a 1911 at least as well as I can any other handgun. And if for some reason I HAD to use FMJ ammo, I still wouldn't be worried.

I tell new guys who are asking me for advice, "Don't overthink science that people have been arguing over for 100 years. 9mm or above, with premium jhp ammo, will provide sufficient penetration for all practican SD applications."

 

[Wild Deuce]

This is a good read that partially addresses your question (Caution ... it is a "caliber war" article). Please remember that it is only a piece of the puzzle, you must do the research, you must determine your needs and you must decide what to load up in your gun.

Don't get so hung up though on the hardware that you forget the software. The mightiest computer isn't worth a thing without the programming.

Having said that, this is also a very good read and the links at the bottom of the page are very good information that you can add to your selection process.

Hope this helps.

 

[Soybomb]

document concludes the two factors most directly related to stopping power, attributable to a bullet, are adequate penetration is bullet size.

I think you missed alot of really good stuff in the document and should maybe consider reading it again. The heart of that document is that there is no magic pixie dust in your handgun wounds. You have to break the body by making the biggest hole you can in the bad guy. Priority 1 is getting your bullet deep enough in the body to reach the juicy tender bits. Lets say 12-16" in gelatin. Once you have that there is no reason to waste any more of your bullet's potential to do work, you might as well put that extra energy to making the wound bigger. The sharper edge of a jhp will crush more tissue along with of course the added diameter of a wound. In some calibers, usually .38 special and below this might mean that an expanding round is an iffy choice. 9mm and up though its the smart choice.

 

[Shawnee]

Copaup's comments...

"Realize that they (shootouts) suck and practice how to avoid them at nearly any cost. Practice situational awareness and recognizing threats, to better avoid them."

Is the BEST advice you'll ever read.

 

[gallo]

Thank you for these great posts.
*******************************

Copaup, your advice about preparing for a gun fight is priceless. I used to give similar advice to my martial arts students about avoiding fights at all costs. The easiest fight won is the one you avoid. Force should only be used when your life or the one of your loved ones is in eminent danger, but when used it should be delivered swiftly and explosively with control and complete awareness of the environment. This sounds easy but with practice it becomes second nature.

I'll give the 124 gr gold dot a try.

Thank you.

 

[Steve C]

Hollow points work better than solids. Figured that out when I was a kid shooting rabbits and prairie dogs with a .22LR. If you've never shot and killed or wounded anything in your life then you have little practical basis for opinion other than arguing strictly on other persons theories.

 

[gallo]

I've shot plenty of 4 legged creatures mostly with 22LR HP and 30-30 round nose. Even deer and javalina can be downed with a .22 with proper shot placement. Surprisingly, the hardest to put down in my experience were hares because shot placement at 50 to 75 meters with such a small target is a toss up. A shot to the gut is almost a guarantee the animal will disappear into the bushes.

One evening I went out around 18:00 looking for rabbits with my .22 rifle and instead found a puma sitting in the middle of the road staring in my direction about 100 meters away. I decided to go back to the ranch and call it a day.

With regards to using the FBI's research for answers as to what effects handguns calibers have on two legged creatures, that's as good as it gets for me. I have no desire to get first hand knowledge.

 

[Michael Courtney]

There is evidence for hydrostatic shock. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

 

[gallo]

I'm not sure wikipedia can be considered evidence. However, the entry does post an interesting point of view.

 

[Soybomb]

Wikipedia on its own is never a proper reference, the references below the article are the evidence you're looking for.

 

[Michael Courtney]

Wikipedia on its own is never a proper reference, the references below the article are the evidence you're looking for.

Here is a longer list of references:

Chamberlin FT, Gun Shot Wounds, in Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders, Vol. II, Ackley PO, ed., Plaza Publishing, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1966.

Livingstone WK, Davis EW, Livingstone KE: Delayed recovery in peripheral nerve lesions caused by high velocity wounding. J. Neurosurg., 2: 170, 1945.

Puckett WO, Grundfest H, McElroy WD, McMillen JH, Damage to peripheral nerves by high velocity missiles without a direct hit. J. Neurosurg., 3: 294, 1946.

Evan AP, Willis LR Lingeman JE, McAteer JA, Renal Trauma and the Risk of Long-Term Complications in Shock Wave Lithotripsy, Nephron 78(1):1-8, 1998
Lingeman JE, Kim SC, Keo RL, McAteer JA, Evan AP: Shockwave Lithotripsy: Anecdotes and Insights. Journal of Endourology 17(9):687-693; 2003.

Lokhandwalla M, Sturtevant B: Mechanical Haemolysis in Shock Wave Lithotripsy (SWL): I. Analysis of Cell Deformation due to SWL Flow-Fields. Physics in Medicine & Biology 46(2):413-437; 2001.

Sturtevant B, Shock Wave Effects in Biomechanics, Sadhana, 23: 579-596, 1998.

Roberts JC, Ward EE, Merkle AC, O’Conner JV, Assessing Behind Armor Blunt Trauma, The Journal of Trauma, 62, 1127-1133, 2007.

Roberts JC, O’Conner JV, Ward EE, Modeling the Effect of Nonpenetrating Ballistic Impact, The Journal of Trauma, 58: 1241-1251, 2005.

Suneson A, Hansson HA, Seeman T: Pressure Wave Injuries to the Nervous System Caused by High Energy Missile Extremity Impact: Part I. Local and Distant Effects on the Peripheral Nervous System. A Light and Electron Microscopic Study on Pigs. The Journal of Trauma. 30(3):281-294; 1990.

Wang Q, Wang Z, Zhu P, Jiang J: Alterations of the Myelin Basic Protein and Ultrastructure in the Limbic System and the Early Stage of Trauma-Related Stress Disorder in Dogs. The Journal of Trauma. 56(3):604-610; 2004.

Cernak I, Wang, Z, Jiang J, Bian, X, Savic J, Ultrastructural and Functional Characteristics of Blast Injury-Induced Neurotrauma, The Journal of Trauma, 50:695-706, 2001.

Cernak I, Wang, Z, Jiang J, Bian, X, Savic J, Cognitive deficits following blast injury- induced neurotrauma, Brain Injury, 15(7):593-612, 2001.

Cernak I, Blast (Explosion)-Induced Neurotrauma: A Myth Becomes Reality, Restorative Neurology and Neuroscience, 23:139-140, 2005.

Lee M, Longoria RG, Wilson DE, Ballistic Waves in High-Speed Water Entry, Journal of Fluids and Structures, 11, 819-844, 1997.

Hoover WR, Dawson VCD, Hydrodynamic pressure measurements of the vertical water entry of a sphere, U.S. Naval Ordnance Laboratory, White Oak, MD, U.S.A., Tech. Report 66-70, 1966.

Shi H, Kume M, An Experimental Research on the Flow Field of Water Entry by Pressure Measurements, Phys. Fluids 13(1), 347-349, 2001.

Courtney M, Courtney A: Ballistic pressure wave contributions to rapid incapacitation in the Strasbourg goat tests. http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701267.pdf

Göransson AM, Ingvar DH, Kutyna F: Remote Cerebral Effects on EEG in High-Energy Missile Trauma. The Journal of Trauma. 28(1 Supplement):S204-S205; January 1988.

Suneson A, Hansson HA, Seeman T: Pressure Wave Injuries to the Nervous System Caused by High Energy Missile extremity Impact: Part II. Distant Effects on the Central Nervous System. A Light and Electron Microscopic Study on Pigs. The Journal of Trauma. 30(3):295-306; 1990.

Courtney A, Courtney M: Links between traumatic brain injury and ballistic pressure waves originating in the thoracic cavity and extremities. Brain Injury 21(7): 657-662, 2007. Pre-print: http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/tbipwave.pdf

Courtney M, Courtney A: Review of criticisms of ballistic pressure wave experiments, the Strasbourg goat tests, and the Marshall and Sanow data. http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701268.pdf

Courtney M, Courtney A: Relative incapacitation contributions of pressure wave and wound channel in the Marshall and Sanow data set. http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701266.pdf

Courtney M, Courtney A: A method for testing handgun bullets in deer. http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0702/0702107.pdf

Suneson A, Hansson HA, Seeman T: Peripheral High-Energy Missile Hits Cause Pressure Changes and Damage to the Nervous System: Experimental Studies on Pigs. The Journal of Trauma. 27(7):782-789; 1987. Suneson A, Hansson HA, Seeman T: Central and Peripheral Nervous Damage Following High-Energy Missile Wounds in the Thigh. The Journal of Trauma. 28(1 Supplement):S197-S203; January 1988.

Courtney M, Courtney A, Experimental Observations of Incapacitation via Ballistic Pressure Wave without a Wound Channel, 2007. Pre-print: http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/lotor.pdf

Ming L, Yu-Yuan M, Ring-Xiang F, Tian-Shun F: The characteristics of pressure waves generated in the soft target by impact and its contribution to indirect bone fractures. The Journal of Trauma 28(1) Supplement: S104-S109; 1988.

Tikka S, Cederberg A, Rokkanen P: Remote effects of pressure waves in missile trauma: the intra-abdominal pressure changes in anaesthetized pigs wounded in one thigh. Acta Chir. Scand. Suppl. 508: 167-173, 1982.

Akimov GA, Odinak MM, Zhivolupov SA, et al., The mechanisms of the injuries to the nerve trunk in gunshot wounds of the extremities: Experimental research. Voen Med Zh 80: 34, 1993.

 

[BrokenArrow]

There are plenty of departments and agencies that have experience w RNL, FMJ, and JHPs. They all think the JHPs stop better more often than they don't.

If FMJ were better than JHPs, the FBI would issue them instead of JHPs; they don't.

So would the DEA, ATF, USMS, ICE, CBP, USSS, FAM, NYPD, LAPD, CHP, Texas Rangers, etc.

FBI wants it's duty ammo to avg 12 - 18 inches in theirt test series, with as few rounds as possible penetrating less than 12 and over 18. When scoring ammo for contracts, they give 10 points for 12 - 18, 5 points for over 18, and 1 point for under 12.

I would not excessively worry about overpenetration, but I woud not discount it entirely either. You can have too much and too little. The FBIs sweet spot of 12 - 18 works for me. And NYPD.

Back when NYPD was issuing FMJ and JHP in 9s, in a 2 year period 41 of the 121 people (34%) hit by NYPD bullets were hit by bullets that went through somebody else first (almost as bad as the misses). 5 of 25 JHPs (20%) and 36 of 96 FMJs (38%). They dumped the FMJs the next year. Have stuck w the JHPs for 10 yrs, and they are stopping way better than the FMJ did, even though they penetrate less and make two holes less often. NYPD duty load is Speer 124 +P GD.

In gel through :

cloth 14
denim 16
wboard 12.5
pwood 14
glass 13

Avg expansion in above tests is about .59 caliber, and in real people it's as good/better.

 

[DPris]

The best answer to the question is: If you don't believe in HPs & don't want to carry them, don't carry them.
Denis

 

[OhioPaints]

Hollow points work better than solids.

Hollow points WITH SUFFICIENT ENERGY work better than FMJ. However, "solids" would include SWC which work better than FMJ.

A FMJ bullet tends to stretch the organs and then the hole closes whereas a SWC tends to cut a larger hole.

I know we are talking self defense here against two legged creatures, but against larger game animals, a SWC is definitely preferred (for penetration) over a hollow point (handgun rounds). I would also think that a .44 or .45 SWC would be more effective against 2 legged creatures than a FMJ bullet. But again, with sufficient energy, a JHP is probably even better.

Ken

 

[billdeserthills]

Have you ever checked out thisguys research:
www.goldenloki.com

click on the gelatin tests