David W Gay,
You need to go back and re-read the entire thread. Start with post #1:
It was around 9:30pm in Jersey and this guy knocks on my front door. So I looked through the windows and he held a badge up to the window. Well I don't use my front door so I have a DVD rack blocking it. I asked him, can I help you? He said he would like to have a few words with me, and if I could open the door. I told him to go to the side door. So I met him at the side door. I open the door and there are 6 guys standing there. I though Thats it!! My dumb ass falls for the oldest trick in the book and I was going to get robed.
The main guy, he had his badge on his belt. The other 5 had there badges around there neck. They Dress real nice. The main guy came up to the door and ask If I lived here. I said yea. He asked if anyone els lived here. I said my wife. I noticed the other 5 guys huddling around one another. They were looking at a sketch not a picture. I asked the main guy what this was about. He asked How long have you lived here? I told him about 6 months. He looked a little surprised.
He asked me if I new whear the previous owner of the house is living now. I told him no, but I have been getting a lot of mail for him that I have been sending back to sender. I new that a few letters I got for him were Summons to appear in court. He said thanx for your help and he started to walk away. I closed the door and watched them from a window. One of them wrote down my Licens Plate # and then they left in this Big Suberban I think. Nice Truck.
Here is a question. If six guys are at your front door saying they are the FBI, and you have no idea what an FBI badge looks like. Would you answer the door with a gun on you?
Where do you see anything about the FBI agents demanding entry to Kermit911s home?
Then in post #14 Molon Labe says this:
Who cares?
Do not open the door. Tell them to call you or send you a letter. Then decide if you want to meet with them. If you do want to meet with them, do so on your terms, not theirs.
Sorry to sound so paranoid; such is not my intention. But a prudent person should automatically assume anyone with a badge is a JBT unless proven otherwise.
Which started the current debate.
At no time did anyone in this thread state that anyone was demanding entry to anyone's home. The issue is answering the door. Opening the door and stepping out to be identified is not demanding entry. Demanding entry would be demanding Molon Labe open the door and allow me to go in.
If you actually read the case hammer4nc posted, you'll find that the officers had an arrest warrant for a third party that they believed was in Hilgenberg's home. They entered the home to search for the wanted man. The court held that the arrest warrant was not sufficient grounds to enter Hilgenberg's home and that they should have obtained a search warrant. The court also held that Higenberg did not obstruct the officers by refusing them entry without a warrant.
In kermit911's post no one asked to come inside the house. Here is my imaginary conversation with Molon Labe from post #87:
Molon Labe said;
Quote:
Remember, do not let the JBTs intimidate you or control you. Stay in the driver's seat. Meet on your terms, not theirs.
That's not the way it works.....
Let's say that I'm conducting an investigation into a crime that happened in Molon Labe's neighborhood and that other witnesses have told me that he witnessed. It's early in my shift (I normally work 7p-3a) and I don't bother people with routine folllowups past 9pm. I park my marked squad in front of Mr. Labe's house and walk up to the door...knock..knock....
Officer White: Mr Labe would you open the door, I just have a few questions about the altercation in the park last night.
Molon Labe: We have nothing to say at this time.
Officer White: Other witnesses have told us that you were there and may be able to identify some of the other people involved.
Molon Labe: Leave our property at once.
Officer White: Mr. Labe, you are a witness to a crime, if you don't open the door and speak with me you could be arrested for Obstructing a Peace Officer.
Molon Labe: If you wish to make an appointment to speak with us, send us a letter or call us.
Officer White: Mr. Labe, you aren't in any trouble, this will only take a few minutes of your time. Obstructing a peace officer is a Class A misedemeanor, punishable by up to a year in jail and a substantial fine.
Tell me where I demanded entry into Molon Labe's home? Opening the door and coming out to identify yourself is not the same as the officer entering the house.
The US Supreme Court has ruled that the police can ask someone to identify themselves and it is not a violation of their 4th amendment rights. Those who refuse are charged and held for Obstructing a Peace Officer . If it turns out they are wanted, and that's why they refused to identify themselves, they are then charged with obstructing justice which is a felony. And no, giving us your name is not a violation of your 5th Amendment rights against self incrimination if you are wanted on a warrant.
Let me ask you this, if I'm at Molon Labe's house and I have an arrest warrant for someone who's last known address is Molon Labe's address, and Molon Labe gives me his pat answer through the door, would I be violating the law if I called for backup and entered his house to serve the arrest warrant?
You would think that by reading the case hammer4nc posted, that we couldn't enter the house. But if you read the entire decison it would say that an arrest warrant is sufficient to enter the house if it is the wanted person's house and we believe him to be inside. Since Molon Labe decided to play it his way, the response most likely would have been to call for backup, and enter the house by force and conduct a search for the wanted person. Just another reason why opening the door and stepping out to speak to the officers to find out why they are there is probably the best course of action.
Now I know that everyone is going to get really enraged at that, but it would be legal and I doubt that there would be any way to collect civilly given the fact that Molon Labe's home was the last known address of the wanted person, Molon Labe refused to talk with the officers and acted in a hostile manner, the officers would be acting in good faith based on the information available to them.
Jeff