The Religion of the .45, 9mm is the Devil!

[The Lone Haranguer]

I liked .45 much better when a box of practice ammo was a ten-spot.

 

[Confederate]

It's not the caliber...I'd be more concerned with buying a suitable gun. A Glock just doesn't do anything for me, but the second and third generation S&Ws really appeal to me, especially the 659 and 5906. The Beretta 9mm also appeals to me. But it's all a personal choice. What I'm saying is that the gun is more important, in this case, than the caliber -- and the 9mm does pack a good punch with hot hollowpoint bullets.

I have fired Glocks and I have a S&W .45 (can't recall the model), and both have square, boxy slides that turn me off. I also had a friend who shot a Moro in the chest point blank with a .45 (during the war) and he had to hit the guy over the head to put him down. He said he'd never had faith in the .45 after that. Then, in Korea, they found that the Chinese were clothed so heavily that after they were killed by machine gun fire, that .45 bullets had lodged in many of their vests. So horror stories abound in both calibers. Going to JHPs really helps the 9mm, but not so much the .45 auto. Another factor--soldiers are limited to ball ammo, but you aren't.

Pick a nice 9mm you like and then find some good 115gr JHPs. And if you need more of a manstopper than that, get a good .357 magnum revolver!

 

[Budgetshooter]

Fact is, if you make a one shot drop with a 45 you can hit them in the same spot with the 9 and it will still drop them. If there's an indian charging at you on a horse, the 45 would be better for shooting the horse in the shoulder.

 

[kgpcr]

A 9mm is a good round if you cant handle a .40 or .45.

 

[Hardballing]

A 9mm is a good round.
There.

Fixed it for ya.

 

[m2steven]

Armedbear: If I could get 50AE for 7.99 per box of 50, I'd probably like that. But if you don't reload or don't have the cash for super large expensive ammo to practice with, the 9mm or 40sw is pretty nice. Buy a box of really good ammo to carry, and as much cheap crap you can find to take to the range. I really don't think you should carry the notion that the 9mm is a "toy". A pellet pistol is not a toy. Tell your glass eye it was a toy. Or your dentures.

 

[MikePGS]

A 9mm is a good round if you cant handle a .40 or .45.

And both .40 and .45's are good rounds if you can't handle a 10mm, .357 mag, .41 mag, etc. etc.

 

[Quiet]

The Religion of the .45, 9mm is the Devil!

What does that make the .45GAP?

 

[Confederate]

The .45 certainly isn't a skimpy round, but it's limited in a number of ways. Some people like the 230 gr ball ammo, but I'm convinced the 185 JHP is the way to go. I loved going out in the middle of nowhere and shooting at clay pigeons 100 yards out with my .357 Security-Six. Even with a 2.75-inch barrel, I could make life extremely uncomfortable to a mansize target at that range. One woman who had never shot before was kicking up dirt all around the clay target and would shatter it quite often. The .45 has the trajectory of a bowling ball. The 9mm runs much flatter and penetrates well. Many guns also let you shoot many more rounds than the .45.

On forums like this, we tend to sometimes become preoccupied with the downside of a particular gun or round. But reading as many news reports as I have about people successfully defending themselves with guns, I have yet to read one where either the 9mm or .45 was inadequate. Indeed, it's amazing the number of people who have successfully used the lowly .25 ACP or .22LR to drive away or kill their assailants.

In most cases, people don't actually have to fire their guns at all. One former burglar who went into the home security market told his story of his last break in. He said he was stuffing items into a black plastic bag in a home he thought was empty when he said he heard the scariest sound he had ever heard during a break-in -- that of a slide being released. He didn't know what type of gun it was or the caliber, but he knew what it was the instant he heard it. He was so frightened that he left the bag and fled. "If I had wanted to meet people," he joked, "I would have been a mugger." The point is, he wanted no part of being on the wrong end of any firearm.

This isn't to say that caliber is unimportant, but a 9mm hollowpoint isn't anything to be taken lightly. I will say that based on what I've read and heard, the .40 hasn't lived up to expectations. It was supposed to outclass both the .45 and 9mm, but in the end just didn't quite make it. Not that it didn't get a following...it's just that it failed to reach that "perfect storm" kind of a thing that the .357 125gr JHP did. One federal agent complained to me that a single shot to the chest failed to stop a 40-year old woman who was threatening agents down South somewhere. And there were other incidents where it didn't work out too well.

The 9mm has seen some vast improvements over the last few years and is a popular round. My 659 S&W is a great gun, especially with a 20-round clip. Who needs sights with that many rounds? Just close your eyes and keep shooting!

 

[armoredman]

Want ultimate stopping power in a concealable handgun? Get a Serbu Shorty and stoke it with 3 inch magnum slugs. Anything less is underpowered and unfit for man nor beast, only weak suckling babes.
Sarcasm aside, I trust my 9mm, with Golden Sabres inside, no worries. I agree, get a CZ75, a PCR would be a great choice, and have fun.

 

[Rexster]

I could be comfortable carrying either the 9mm or .45 ACP into harm's way, and have done so, by choice. The choice is now made for me, .40 S&W, and I am OK with that, too. The realistic terminal performance of all the duty-type cartridges is quite close. IMHO, the .357 mag is a step up, but at the expense of much more abuse at the back end, to the shooter. (I say this as someone who does still use .357 mag at times, and has BT&DT with the .357.)

The .380, on the other hand, is far down the food chain from the 9x19mm. Shot placement IS important, regardless, but a .380 does not cause as much damage as I would prefer to inflict upon a human adversary under a wide range of conditions.

Don't get me wrong; when I am too feeble to handle the more powerful cartridges, if all I can handle is a .380, then so be it. It will be a large .380, so that its handling qualities and higher-profile sights will allow pinpoint accuracy; Berettas, Brownings, SIG P232s, and my wife's superb Walther PP come to mind. I have a .32 ACP Seecamp pistol now, though it is a niche gun, not an everyday carry piece, nor even an everyday backup gun.

 

[Shear_stress]

Debates like this go on as nauseum precisely because there is little evidence of a clear cut, unequivocal, real world difference in "performance" between the .45 and 9mm. Any evidence that is there is completely obscured by the huge number of variables involved in every shooting. But even this is overshadowed by the overwhelmingly subjective yet totally rigid opinions people have the luxury of having in the absence of real proof.

 

[RonBernert]

"RE: Shot placement is all important be it 9 or .22 or .380. Using hi cap mags you'll be OK, just keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. One .45 in a limb or center of mass and it's over."

Actually not true at all. a .45 is not the magic round everyone thinks it is... Of course, I am opening myself up to argument here, but here goes...

I was involved in a justifiable homicide, and the perp was shot seven (7) times and was still moving, all of the shots were fired out of a ParaOrdinance P-14/45. All were 230GR ball ammo, all stayed in the body. First 3 shots he was in the "back room" of the store, next 3 shots happened while he was running towards a co-worker and myself. Last shot actually hit him in the back while he was trying to shoot over the shoulder. Six of the seven shots were center mass, seventh shot caught him in the right shoulder. He DID NOT "spin like a top" and it DID NOT knock him down.

He lived for a while after that, breathing through his back with me standing on his shoulders. End of the story is that he did lose the battle, but during the entire event, he did not go down, and everything I ever heard about the 45 caliber being a "magic" round (and most people are taught that) was wrong. He had just as much opportunity to shoot me while he had 6 bullets in him and running towards me as none at all.

I carry a few other calibers for CCW now, from .32, 9mmMAK, 9mm Para and .38. I leave the .45 at home. Not because I don't believe in the .45, but because a good shot with a 9mm is just as good, if not better.

 

[03Shadowbob]

My grandfather always told me that a 45 is for protection and a 22 is for practice. For cheap practice I use my 22/45 and for SD I use my 1911s. .22 is much cheaper than 9mm.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Who past the age of fifteen actually cares?

 

[w_houle]

IT must be true... I read it on the internet!
Some guy was shot with a .45 in the pinkie and it blew the top of his head off!
Then another guy had emptied his 9mm into some crazed mad and that guy got so pissed off from being shot with a 9mm that he ripped off his own arm and started beating him with his arm. The only reason the attacker died was because he ripped his own arm off...

 

[SalchaketJoe]

I did not intend this to be a 45 vs 9mm debate, more questioning those that had been "washed in the blood" so to speak of .45 lore and then began to look towards that 9mm. I plan on getting both, starting with that M&P 9mm then later getting a nice 1911, probably a Colt Commander.

 

[NMGonzo]

I have a .380 for the missus and a .45 for me.

now ... I have to convince her that shooting the gov't model muzzle flips just the same and we are good to go.

 

[HammerheadSSN663]

I still say a good sized rock strategically placed with good speed will put a man down.

Anything over that is a bonus.

 

[chopper180]

OK, I'm not going to jump in the 9mm vs. debate, but I will share with you why I carry a 9mm most of the time:

1. I shoot the 9mm well. I've shot everything from a .22 to a 454 Cassul and I tend to shoot the 9mm the best. I can certainly shoot other calibers well, but I've found that the 9mm is easier for me to shoot well consistently.

2. 9mm ammo is cheap. This means I can practice more than I could with other more expensive calibers. (maybe this is why I shoot best with a 9mm?) In theory world, where some people live, this wouldn't be an issue. In my world (consisting of a wife, kids, and mortgage) it does matter

3. Typically the 9mm is going to give you more rounds than a .40 or .45. I know that there are those that will argue that "you shouldn't need more than xx rounds" and "I don't spray and pray". Personally, I've never been in a gunfight and therefore don't know how I would react, how it would affect my shooting ability. No amount of paper target shooting will prepare you for a real-world situation. Even in the best of simulations, you won't react the same way when it's for real. I can blow the heck out of paper targets, but that's a far cry from returning fire in an attempt to defend my life or the lives of others. I'd rather have 30-35 rounds than 14-25

4. I've yet to find anyone willing to act as a backstop for me and my "wimpy" 9mm. No matter how much someone may purport to "know" that some caliber is far superior to my little 9, they just won't hold the target for me.

Don't get me wrong, I pretty much like everything when it comes to shooting; pistols, rifles, bows, etc., in just about any configuration. My only caution is buying into the myth that there's some "wundergun" or "wunderbullit" out that will cause instant death just from sheer intimidation. If it was that simple, there would only be one caliber.

 

[tiger rag]

both are very effective defense calibers ,carry what you are confident in .
I do not want to be a backstop for a bb gun ,but since this is a somewhat "religious topic" as I recall the 9mm could not put the Pope down. Just kiddin .

 

[chopper180]

^

 

[PhiloebeddoUSA]

Salkachet Joe
I know you brought this up elsewhere, but it case you didn't read it, the CZ compact which you mentioned is a bit porky and heavy. I carry this model, but would not consider it a pocket size. 3.9 in. barrel.

Your thoughts on a single stack .45 (new agent type 3.5 bbl.) sound right on the money. Another possiblity would be a PPK type chambered in .380 or MAK.

Best of luck. Enjoyed reading all the posts.

 

[fireside44]

2. 9mm ammo is cheap. This means I can practice more than I could with other more expensive calibers. (maybe this is why I shoot best with a 9mm?) In theory world, where some people live, this wouldn't be an issue. In my world (consisting of a wife, kids, and mortgage) it does matter

This.^

I prefer shooting .45's myself, actually, I prefer shooting .45LC a lot more, but you simply can't beat the cost effectiveness of 9mm ammo. If you reload it is almost as cost effective as .22lr.

Each time I make a trip to the range I come back with hundreds of free 9mm brass but far fewer .45acp stuff. A $100 dollar investment in wheel weights will net you 13 or 14k 9mm projectiles with a little bit of work. Dollar for dollar, 9mm can't be beaten.

 

[smoothdraw]

what's wrong with 45ACP? If you find it expensive ... we are really in a expensive sport. If you want to save and enjoy to shoot the slow subsonic big bore slug then reload. Reload is as fun (at least for others) as shooting.

I subscribe to the idea of shooting using the designed ammo for the gun. For me it means 45acp for my 1911's and 9mm for my Glocks. I use 45ACP for defense/carry and training/tournaments while 9mm Glocks for tournaments only. Can you use 9mm for defense oh yeah! But 45ACP is slower, is bigger, will have correct penetration because it will expand more, and will be less loud because it is subsonic. It's a personal choice. Remember also that a hot supersonic 9mm tends to be louder, more recoil, put more stress in your weapon, and tends to overpenetrate (although there are some scenarios that you might want overpenetration to happen). There are too many compromises in 9mm i should say. And special loads of 9mm are expensive too and say vs a FMJ 230gr 45ACP performance/price which is better? So i only use 9mm to shoot papers.

At least at my range, I still get a lot of 45ACP brass. Sometimes more than 9mm. And I agree to save when finances are thin, then maybe select your practice and don't just simply go to shooting range and dump leads downrange. Shoot IDPA or USPSA for example. A weekly indoor match is average only 50 rounds. And maybe sell some of your collection that are just collecting dust. And retain only the weapon that you use for defense, for training and for practice. Maybe just shoot once a month in your outdoor IDPA or IPSC match.