The strange tendancy of some gunowners to dislike all government Regulation

[Master Blaster]

One thing that puzzles me about some of my fellow Gunowners is that they tend to take the gun issue and morph it to all other government regulation of our society. Perhaps this is a symptom of being a one issue voter, or there is just a knee jerk reaction that says since Government regulation of guns in conflict with the second amendment is bad, all other Government regulation or interferrence in the economic and social process is bad. A recent thread which mentioned the minimum wage is typical of this,"Freedom from the Government in all things" thought process.

Obviously some folks missed the unit on the Robber Barrons in their US history class, and have never read Upton Sinclairs the Jungle either.

For their benefit, and to solicit their feedback as to why they think all social engineering is bad, and even to get them to study a little US History, to inform their thought process I am posting the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor_in_the_mining_industry

http://www.wwmm.org/storie/storia.asp?id_storia=191&pagina=4&project=0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Ladies'_Garment_Workers'_Union

I would urge the freedom from any government interference at all costs folks to read the first one about child labor, its why we have labor laws and the minimum wage etc.

And the next time you buy a made in China product think about how its made and he child labor that goes into it, and ask yourself if unrestrained capitalism is soo good afterall. If you still answer yes, I will be over with my private army of pinkertons, to crush your body in my press, because I can sell your blood for $20 bucks.:banghead:

 

[TexasRifleman]

OK, so you are pro Union. Is there any other point to your post?

Because though I get your argument, the examples you have posted were examples of why Unions gained in power as much as anything else.

 

[Sistema1927]

Laissez faire, baby, laissez faire.

Less government is a good thing. As Ronald Reagan stated, government is never the answer. And, no, we weren't sleeping through those classes, we were unconvinced that the creeping socialism that has wrapped its ugly tentacles around freedom is preferable to a "hands off" government.

Freedom, it is a wonderful thing.

 

[AntiqueCollector]

There is no justification for an overgrown government that terrorizes its people.

 

[Joe Demko]

Although I largely agree with you, the age of Robber Barons wasn't really an example of unrestrained capitalism. It was more of an example of collusion between the Robber Barons and the government. The PA State Police, for example, used to scornfully be called the Coal and Iron Cops. They were formed by the state government at the behest of the coal and steel magnates to crush those troublesome strikers.
I have deep doubts that unrestrained capitalism would be the paradise some Libertarians say it would, but I also must say we've never seen an example of it in the industrial era.

 

[Blackfork]

I don't find gun owners perception of the growth of government in both cost and intrusiveness strange at all. I find it realistic.

Is it really your perception that US and State Governemnt is just about the right size and power...EXCEPT for gun law? Somehow, I doubt that.

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

One thing that puzzles me about some of my fellow Gunowners is that they tend to take the gun issue and morph it to all other government regulation of our society.

You got it backwards. A general dislike of government leads people to a desire to keep and bear arms. That should answer all your questions.

For every instance of big business run amok, I can give you far more and far worse examples of big government run amok, but that might take this too far off topic for the moderators of this board.

 

[JohnL2]

"Balance good, everything good."
"Ahahahahaha! Daniel-san all wet behind ear! Ahahahaha!"
- Mr. Miyagi

 

[MechAg94]

Joe Demko said it. Most the Robber Barons were helped out by judges and politicos who sent in the army and national guard to stop strikes and such.

Unions are a whole other argument. The govt has OSHA and the EPA and others now that do some of the things unions were formed to do.


Overall, I think you are referring to the Libertarian attitudes of many gun owners.

 

[DigitalWarrior]

I know plenty of gun owners who are pro sensible regulations. What you are experiencing is the personality skew of basement-dwelling beardos who comprise a majority of internet obsessives.

The more a person posts, the more they are in cyber-space, the less they are in "meat-space". These people tend to be non-functional IRL. Whether they are Randroids, commies, furries, or mental (manic-depressive/bipolar/ass-burgers). See, normal people have friends, families, or hobbies. Think of it like a syndrome.

The average basement dwelling beardo has the internet presence of two dozen "normal people".

DigitalWarrior <---Slashdot reading Basement Dweller

 

[cuchulainn]

It was more of an example of collusion between the Robber Barons and the government.

Yep.

I'll also note that as is typical of these discussions, we're given pro-regulation examples that are nearly or more than a century old.

Yea Grover Cleveland!
Hoorah William McKinley!
Huzzah Huzzah Teddy Roosevelt!

There's the problem. A century ago, the government stepped in to address some real problems. That doesn't justify the century of bloated and over-reaching government regulations that we've seen in the last 100 years since then.

 

[ChristopherG]

MB,

I think you're seeing the difference between the kind of ideology that's fun to throw around in an electro-bullletin pseudo-space, and the kind of complexity that emerges in the real world. Like a lot of people here, I'm a Libertarian at heart--and I'd like to believe it would work as actual policy. But in truth, I know my Libertarianism, if I were able to extend it from ideology into actual policy, would extend to a lot more social/moral areas than economic/power issues, for the precise kinds of reasons you cite.

Of course, I'm not an anti-gun-control purist, either, so I might not be the right person to talk about what you're observing--but my take is that it's just the free flowering of an ideology unencumbered by the messy results of policy and implementation.

 

[Augustwest]

You got it backwards. A general dislike of government leads people to a desire to keep and bear arms. That should answer all your questions.

What he said.

 

[Joe Demko]

You better have doffed your hat and held it over your heart when you spoke St. Roosevelt's name.

 

[BrianB]

There is a tremendous pressure on all legislators to write bills, pass bills, and create more/new law. It's something to throw on their resume that looks good. Those that voice "LESS GOVT" provide a balance. Reality will always find the midpoint between the extremes. Lose that voice on the right, and you'd be amazed how fast things would go socialist/communist.

 

[Mannix]

Government is fine, as long as it remains of the people, for the people, and by the people. The thing about "too much"(trying to get away from "unrestrained") capitalism is that capital is political power, and when too few get too much money, we have the undermining of the political system, whereby politicians get bought off and real control lies in the hands of the rich elite, wait... that sounds familiar...

 

[Pilgrim]

Along with government regulation goes the potential of abuse of that power. Talk to a building contractor in your area and find out what he has to do to ensure his projects are inspected and approved in a timely fashion without being 'nit-picked' to death.

Pilgrim

 

[Zundfolge]

they tend to take the gun issue and morph it to all other government regulation of our society.

You may have the cart before the horse.

I hated government regulation of our society LONG before I owned any guns.

Obviously some folks missed the unit on the Robber Barrons in their US history class, and have never read Upton Sinclairs the Jungle either.

Wrong on both counts.

The whole "Robber Barron" bovine scat is just leftist political posturing (like "tax cuts for the rich" is today).

Upton Sinclair was a Socialist idiot (one of Lennin's "useful idiots") ... I didn't buy into his BS, nor did I buy into the BS of his idols; Karl Marx and Frederick Engels.

Laissez faire, baby, laissez faire.

+1, baby, +1


EDIT
Oh, and I shop at Walmart too so;

 

[JWarren]

I DO like some government regulation. As much as I **HATE** all the paperwork I have to do in my industry, I've seen why it exists.

While I was not a broker in the 1980's, I have spoken to numerous clients and prospective clients who literally lost their life savings to the unethical and misleading actions of some bad brokers who exploited loopholes, etc. for personal gain with no concern for the client.

Now, we have some positive safeguards. I have to show suitability for investments I recommend, show evidence of disclosure of risks, etc.

It's a pain, but it is more responsible than the "wild, wild west" of the 1980's.



There are plenty of instances where power has been abused in both industry AND government. It is healthy to be skeptical and watchful. It is prudent to realize that laws are NEVER applied in the SPIRIT of the law, and ALWAYS in the LETTER of the law.

A good law can be a terrible one depending on its wording.



-- John

 

[Justin]

When your examples of positive social engineering are over a century old, I think that says something.
This would be a better discussion for APS.