kBob
Member
Old Fluff,
Cylinder bolt cuts.
-Bob Hollingsworth
Cylinder bolt cuts.
-Bob Hollingsworth
The THR Walker Club
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messerist
Member
Original Walkers were not stamped "US 1847" on the right side of the barrel.
And clermont is the winner!!!
Unlike other early Colts, the Walkers and earlist production Dragoons were shipped with cylinders that were engraved and polished, but not blued. But with the exception of one replica I am aware of, all of the Italian revolvers have blued cylinders.
Why is this? I think it's because most buyers, who didn't understand the history, would object to getting a gun with a cylinder that wasn't blued. So they made the guns the way they thought customers would expect them.
In other words rather then make an exact replica they made what would sell.
Not to fret. I suspect that most Walker owners don't give a hoot. But all those that feel differently can use a mild acid to strip the blue on the cylinder and then lightly polish it. Do take the nipples out first though. A coat or two of automobile paste wax afterwards will help protect it.
And again, congratulations to Clermont for knowing his Walker history...
To: Old Fuff.
Your explanation as to why replica Walker cylinders are blued, not finished in the white as the originals, is probably correct. But, is there any explanation for the original cylinders not being blued? By the way, which Walker replica had the "in the white" cylinder?
Your explanation as to why replica Walker cylinders are blued, not finished in the white as the originals, is probably correct. But, is there any explanation for the original cylinders not being blued? By the way, which Walker replica had the "in the white" cylinder?
madcratebuilder
Member
My 2nd gen Walker has a 'finished in white' or 'raw' cylinder. The US/1847 stamp on the frame is not on the originals. I think the 2nd gens are as close as you can get to the original.
Unfortunately, I don't remember who made the "white cylinder" Walker reproduction I looked at, but it was an early one, and it wasn't made by Colt.
I have never seen a reason given for the in-the-white cylinders. They might have done it for cosmetic reasons, to get a certain "look," but that doesn't seem too likely.
The following is pure speculation: The Walker held a powder charge far larger then anything Colt had made before, and it is known that they did have trouble with bursting cylinders. At the time the larger iron parts (backstrap and barrel) were blued using a heat process called "charcoal blue," and they might have worried that the heat would degrade the strength of the cylinder. When they went to the Dragoon the cylinders were deliberately shortened to reduce the amount of powder a chamber would hold, and shortly after the introduction of the 1st. Model Dragoon they started bluing cylinders. To support my theory I will point out that the only Colt's that didn't have blued cylinders (unless they were plated) were the Walkers and early Dragoons.
Going forward to the second-generation Colt-made reproductions. They insist that they were "reissues" not "reproductions," and they went to great lengths to make them as right in small details as possible. They didn't have to worry much about them selling. The Italians were in a different sort of market, where people were less to likely to be as fussy about finite details, and weren't knowledgeable enough to understand why the cylinder wasn't blued - like it was 'spose to be.
The Old Fuff, who has spent may happy hours reading contemporary literature concerning the actual history and used of these revolvers that made so much impact on this country’s frontier history, and is a bit surprised that in this fine group of Walker fans only one popped up with the answer, and a nubie at that. But now everybody knows (and I hope appreciates the story). Anything that adds to the Walker lore is a plus so far as I am concerned.
By the way, if the National Rifle Association ever holds its yearly convention in your area, be sure to go. They have a collectors division that puts on a sideshow with unbelievable displays of original antique and classic firearms of all kinds. You will have a chance to actually see some of the very best Walker Colt’s that are still with us, as well as others. Cameras are welcome.
I have never seen a reason given for the in-the-white cylinders. They might have done it for cosmetic reasons, to get a certain "look," but that doesn't seem too likely.
The following is pure speculation: The Walker held a powder charge far larger then anything Colt had made before, and it is known that they did have trouble with bursting cylinders. At the time the larger iron parts (backstrap and barrel) were blued using a heat process called "charcoal blue," and they might have worried that the heat would degrade the strength of the cylinder. When they went to the Dragoon the cylinders were deliberately shortened to reduce the amount of powder a chamber would hold, and shortly after the introduction of the 1st. Model Dragoon they started bluing cylinders. To support my theory I will point out that the only Colt's that didn't have blued cylinders (unless they were plated) were the Walkers and early Dragoons.
Going forward to the second-generation Colt-made reproductions. They insist that they were "reissues" not "reproductions," and they went to great lengths to make them as right in small details as possible. They didn't have to worry much about them selling. The Italians were in a different sort of market, where people were less to likely to be as fussy about finite details, and weren't knowledgeable enough to understand why the cylinder wasn't blued - like it was 'spose to be.
The Old Fuff, who has spent may happy hours reading contemporary literature concerning the actual history and used of these revolvers that made so much impact on this country’s frontier history, and is a bit surprised that in this fine group of Walker fans only one popped up with the answer, and a nubie at that. But now everybody knows (and I hope appreciates the story). Anything that adds to the Walker lore is a plus so far as I am concerned.
By the way, if the National Rifle Association ever holds its yearly convention in your area, be sure to go. They have a collectors division that puts on a sideshow with unbelievable displays of original antique and classic firearms of all kinds. You will have a chance to actually see some of the very best Walker Colt’s that are still with us, as well as others. Cameras are welcome.
Great information Old Fuff. Your comments about the reasons, you feel, Colt left original Walker and Dragoon cylinders in the white make sense. From what I have learned, Colt "reissue" second generation cap & ball revolvers were, in fact, Uberti parts assembled by Colt into completed guns. Colt, through omission, had collectors and shooters believing the parts were Colt manufacture. Even third generation Colt cap & ball revolvers and a rifle were Uberti parts assembled by a company, in Brooklyn, NY, under license to Colt and operating under the name Colt Black Powder Arms Co. However, I believe, the quality of finished second and third generation Colt replica black powder guns exceeded Uberti standards.
Colt did indeed buy raw castings from Uberti, but they did all of the finishing work themselves, and then assembled the complete guns in Hartford. They are without question better then anything Uberti has built themselves in the way of cap & ball revolvers, but then as is now, there was a considerable difference in price, and the Uberti guns remain an excellent value for ordinary shooters.
The third generation Colts were not made by Colt, but rather another manufacturer - also using Uberti castings - that was licensed to use the Colt name. While they weren't always equal to Colt standards, the were much better in terms of fit & finish then run-of-the-mill Italian guns. But again there was a substantial difference in price.
The Italian makers have for the most part, consistantly improved they're products, and made it possible for those that enjoy shooting 19th century style revolvers to do so without having to sell the farm to enjoy the sport.
Without them (the Italians) this thread wouldn't be here.
The third generation Colts were not made by Colt, but rather another manufacturer - also using Uberti castings - that was licensed to use the Colt name. While they weren't always equal to Colt standards, the were much better in terms of fit & finish then run-of-the-mill Italian guns. But again there was a substantial difference in price.
The Italian makers have for the most part, consistantly improved they're products, and made it possible for those that enjoy shooting 19th century style revolvers to do so without having to sell the farm to enjoy the sport.
Without them (the Italians) this thread wouldn't be here.
Smokin_Gun
Member
If that's the case why do 2nd Gen. Colt parts not interchange with Original Colt parts without a significant amount of fitting, but Belgium Centaure Colt 1860 parts do interchange with Original Colt 1860 part with little of no fitting.
Colt Black Powder Works had no drawings as they burned wiith everything else...I heard castings meaning Frames, cylinders, hammers, barrels, triggers and such were brought in from Uberti and machined or fitted. I could tell you where the castings from Uberti came from, but you may well guess it. Jus' some a what I heared / my .02 in...
SG
Colt Black Powder Works had no drawings as they burned wiith everything else...I heard castings meaning Frames, cylinders, hammers, barrels, triggers and such were brought in from Uberti and machined or fitted. I could tell you where the castings from Uberti came from, but you may well guess it. Jus' some a what I heared / my .02 in...
SG
Colt bought complete parts sets from Uberti to make the second generation cap & ball revolvers. But these were raw, unfinished parts that were finished and assembled into revolvers at Hartford. Colt never claimed that parts between first and second generation guns were interchangeable, and especially so without fitting.
Like the Italians, the Belgium Centaure Colt 1860 was created by using an original Colt as a model. At least so far as early guns are concerned they did a better job in duplication. I have one and it's an excellent revolver, but I never tried fitting Colt parts into it. Unfortunately they have not been available in this country for many years - and maybe not anywhere.
Original percussion Colt lockwork - with the exception of the hammer - required individual hand fitting. Why not the hammer? Because it was case hardened.
Like the Italians, the Belgium Centaure Colt 1860 was created by using an original Colt as a model. At least so far as early guns are concerned they did a better job in duplication. I have one and it's an excellent revolver, but I never tried fitting Colt parts into it. Unfortunately they have not been available in this country for many years - and maybe not anywhere.
Original percussion Colt lockwork - with the exception of the hammer - required individual hand fitting. Why not the hammer? Because it was case hardened.
Smokin_Gun
Member
Ok Old Fluff then I misunderstood something I read here then, my fault. We are on the same page then.
I am a Member of FROCS, #26 here's the site and I have in Linked in my Voy BPR and SBPS forums. You are an owner of a Centaure and could become a member if you like... http://www.1960nma.org/ . As a collector shooter you'd enjoy the info on this forum.
I own Centaures SN767 and SN925 dated 1960 production... Wolf collects data and traces the History of these 1860 Belgium Colts, most informative.
Also look forward to seeing you there.
SG
I am a Member of FROCS, #26 here's the site and I have in Linked in my Voy BPR and SBPS forums. You are an owner of a Centaure and could become a member if you like... http://www.1960nma.org/ . As a collector shooter you'd enjoy the info on this forum.
I own Centaures SN767 and SN925 dated 1960 production... Wolf collects data and traces the History of these 1860 Belgium Colts, most informative.
Also look forward to seeing you there.
SG
messerist
Member
According to R. L. Wilson's book Colt: An American Legend "Blue and case-hardening (later on frame, hammer, and loading lever) were the standard finishes on Walker and on Dragoon military pistols. For some unknown reason, Walker, Transition, and very early First Model pistols had their cylinders left in the white" (pg 25). I don't know how accurate Wilson's scholarship is or if more recent works have uncovered new or different revelations as to the reason for "in the white cylinders."
No, there is no later scholarship that I know of that would challange Wilson's statements. That's why I said that my comment was "pure speculation." My theory is however, based on certain factors that are well known. In any case readers can take it or leave it, however they wish - or they can offer their own alternative views. That the fact that the cylinders were made in-the-white is unquestionable.
More research is continuing even as I write this, and there is always the possibility something new will be discovered. I personally hope so.
More research is continuing even as I write this, and there is always the possibility something new will be discovered. I personally hope so.
ModificationVt
Member
so to make my Uberti look more authentic all I have to do is buff off the blue?, and a simple waxing/oiling on a regular basis will keep rust away
Here's information that's often forgotten. Colt Walker pistols were issued in pairs, to troops in the United States Mounted Rifles, to be carried in holsters that straddled the horse, saddle holsters.
To: Old Fuff: If your theory is correct regarding the reason Colt left Walker cylinders in the white, that bluing might affect the integrity of the steel, increasing the possibility of burst cylinders, then Colt must have known about the problem in advance of production, but nevertheless went ahead with production. I read that 30% of issued Walkers suffered burst cylinders. Why didn't government inspectors reject all the Walkers as being unsafe? Were the inspectors bribed by Colt, who needed this contract to survive?
To: Old Fuff: If your theory is correct regarding the reason Colt left Walker cylinders in the white, that bluing might affect the integrity of the steel, increasing the possibility of burst cylinders, then Colt must have known about the problem in advance of production, but nevertheless went ahead with production. I read that 30% of issued Walkers suffered burst cylinders. Why didn't government inspectors reject all the Walkers as being unsafe? Were the inspectors bribed by Colt, who needed this contract to survive?
I don't think that Colt knew for sure, although a number of cylinders did burst when they were test fired. Cylinders were machined from bar stock, and in those days it wasn't unusual to find seams in the bars. As a consequence some cylinders would be good while others wouldn't and it was all a mater of the luck of the draw. I presume that if a revolver passed test firing the government inspectors would pass it. It is unlikely that Colt or Whitney, who was building the guns would have bribed anybody, and if Walker had known he would have gone through the roof.
There is a book (unfortunately it sells in the $170.00 ballpark so I don't have it) that contains copies of all the letters that passed between Colt, Walker, and Whitney at the time. It might contain some clues.
The Walker project was important to Colt, but it wasn't the only iron he had in the fire. At the time he was also working on a design for an electric-fired mine that could be installed to provide a system of harbor defense.
I might add that owners of today's Walker replicas don't have to worry. Modern steel bars are of a much higher quality, and don't have seams. They are also proof tested at higher pressures then were available to Colt and Whitney.
There is a book (unfortunately it sells in the $170.00 ballpark so I don't have it) that contains copies of all the letters that passed between Colt, Walker, and Whitney at the time. It might contain some clues.
The Walker project was important to Colt, but it wasn't the only iron he had in the fire. At the time he was also working on a design for an electric-fired mine that could be installed to provide a system of harbor defense.
I might add that owners of today's Walker replicas don't have to worry. Modern steel bars are of a much higher quality, and don't have seams. They are also proof tested at higher pressures then were available to Colt and Whitney.
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AdmiralB
Member
My understanding is that that was the intent, and accessories (bullet molds/flasks) were ordered as such, but that they were actually issued one-per, resulting in a shortage of flasks and molds.
madcratebuilder
Member
I would not 'buff' the bluing off, I would use BC's blue remover or plain old naval jelly, then polish lightly with metal polish and oil.
IMHO your "pure speculation" is well thought out. Metallurgy was in it's infant states at that time.
scrat
Member
looks like i finally got some time off this weekend so i am going to take out the WALKER and have some fun. Anyone else going shooting this weekend
AK-47Ghost
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Smokin_Gun
Member
Scrat, I must jus' be on the other list...here ya go>>>
scrat
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