The THR Walker Club

[dbarrym]

New member application

After a few months of playing with my 1858 and 1861 Piettas, I finally picked up what appears to be a somewhat unique Walker. Can I join up?

Looking for some history or input on this particular gun - it appears to be a limited/special run, stamped "Texas Ranger" on the left side of the barrel, with a large Texas star stamping on the left side of the case, both filled in with gold. Right side has (of course) "US 1847" above the wedge slot. The top of the case has "0280 of 1000" stamped as well.

As best I can tell, it was made by ASM (the bottom of the barrel is stamped "SM BLACK POWDER ONLY CAL 44 MADE IN ITALY". There are no other maker's marks or proof marks that I can find (after complete disassembly and cleaning); there is a S/N (E64780) stamped just ahead of the trigger guard.

It appears to be unfired, but I did not get any paperwork or box, and a thorough Google search hasn't turned up any info.

Thanks -

Barry

 

[AussieTH]

Aye Baron,

A few words of enlightment if I may about the famous (infamous?) Official Walker Club (on account of dear Scrat holding the cards close to his chest).

Does not matter how many Walkers you have - you will not get in the club until you put up an image of one. It does not matter which one but preferably one of your own.

Once you are in nobody can direct you to the cigar bar because none of us know where it is!

You also will not get a key to the official rest room, but will have to make do with the old wooden thunderbox in the back yard. That is not too bad there is an old blanket out there and a stack of last year's newspapers.

The rats and cockroaches are a bit fierce but do not mind them - just watch out for the back yard tom cat - it is partial to nuts!

You may have trouble finding the place (especially in the dark and you definitely DO NOT want to fall in) as the joint is used to zero in Walker sights so there is not actually very much of it left!

Anyway - you enjoy yourself here - you are in good and very tolerant company!

Aye

Tony

 

[mykeal]

b55Baron - nice airplane.

Removing the cylinder from your Walker -

There is a sticky thread at the top of this forum titled "Black Powder Essentials". Within that thread is a link to another thread titled "How to dissassemble a Colt type revolver". This describes the basic steps. There are no hidden springs or other traps involved so you can proceed down that list with confidence. My only warning is that you must use a good set of gunsmith's screwdrivers as the regular carpenter's screwdrivers WILL damage the screw heads.

There is a bit of a trick to removing the cylinder that's not mentioned in the tutorial. Once you've removed the wedge (back it out all the way, until it's completely loose in the slot and hanging by the head of the screw in the side of the barrel assembly), rotate the cylinder slightly so that when you lower the loading lever the plunger contacts the front surface of the cylinder between chamber mouths. You may want to put a piece of leather or something between the plunger and the cylinder face to prevent scratches, although most people don't bother. Press down on the loading lever and the barrel assembly should be forced off the cylinder arbor (aka base pin), allowing you access to the cylinder. The cylinder should then freely come off the arbor also.

The biggest mistake people make with this step is to fail to ensure the wedge is free of the slot in the arbor. It's not enough to simply push it back - you must make sure it is completely loose and not impeding the barrel assembly.

In addition to the arbor there are two small locating pins in the frame where it meets the barrel assembly just forward of the trigger guard. Often these pins are a tight fit and they could also keep the barrel assembly from slipping off the arbor. If that's the case it sometimes helps to attempt to twist or rotate the barrel assembly about the arbor to loosen the pin connections. You then need to apply more force to the loading lever.

As a last resort one can tap downward on the loading lever with a small brass hammer. Sometimes the shock will break the connection loose.

This is an operation where the occasional use of more and more force is productive. The parts are quite robust and you are unlikely to do any damage. If the wedge is out of the way the only thing between success and failure is the application of brute strength.

 

[mykeal]

dbarrym -

Your gun is quite unusual.

I'm sure you are correct about the manufacturer, Armi San Marco. The lack of proof marks, age stamp and other stamps suggests the gun was modified by an importer as one of a special run. The importer was also likely the source of the Texas Ranger, star and '0280 of 1000' stamps as well. ASM, and other manufacturers as well, supplied many different US importers over the years, and the practice of buying several guns and remarking them for special 'commemorative' purposes was fairly common. I suspect that's the history of your gun. Exactly who the importer was and when that may have occurred I cannot say. I'm sure, however, that one of the forum members will have run across that information at some point.

 

[sackettboys]

My fuzzy memory seems to recall that Walker was in a catalog from EMF.

 

[marlin4570]

ASM Bent Wedge

I bought an 1847 Walker by ASM. Unknown who owned it or it's previous history. According to the codes on the frame it was manufactured in 1986. From reading previous posts on this site it appears some have had wedge issues and some haven't. The wedge on this firearm was in excellent condition and the firearm appeared unfired. I loaded it with 45 grains of FFFG Pyrodex, a wad, a .451 ball and bore butter. One cap failed on the first six shots, a first for me as I have never had this happen to my 1858 or 1860. Changed caps and boom, lots of smoke, everyone was happy.

Decided to take it apart and load the cylinder on a stand for round two, using the same load. Very difficult removing the wedge. Finally got it out. Noticed some burrs that I didn't recall but I may have missed them before. Put it back together. Fired 6 more. Another two failures to fire. Changed caps. New number 10 CCI. Thought I had a bad can. Did not take the wedge out again and continued loading using the lever. By the fourth round hardly any caps were firing. Then I noticed the cylinder gap and then I figured out if I aimed with the muzzle raised, the cylinder would stay back so it could get enough force to strike the cap and fire. The cylinder had developed so much play the primers wouldn't fire. Emptied the cylinder, took it home and took it apart to wash it in hot soapy water. Noticed the wedge was severely bent as I had to drive it out with a punch.

So I need a new wedge. Have read about harder ones out there. Will an Uberti wedge fit? Do I need to get an ASM wedge and get it hardened. What is a good source for replacement wedges. Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[scrat]

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75. Kiwiwalker
76. Ratdog68
77. shootmeinthehead
78 marlin_444
79. AussieTH
80. b55baron
81. dbarrym

 

[mykeal]

So I need a new wedge. Have read about harder ones out there. Will an Uberti wedge fit? Do I need to get an ASM wedge and get it hardened. What is a good source for replacement wedges.

A Uberti wedge should fit your ASM Walker. However, it isn't necessarily true that a new ASM wedge will be as soft as the one on your gun was. The difference in price is $8; the ASM is $12, while the Uberti wedge is $20 (plus shipping in both cases). If it were me, I'd order the ASM wedge thinking it will fit and will likely be hardened versus the Uberti wedge that should fit but almost certainly is hardened.

VTI Gun Parts ASM Walker

VTI Gun Parts Uberti Walker

 

[dbarrym]

Thanks

mykeal and sackettboys - thanks for the info. I'll keep digging to see what I can find.

As the ASM's don't appear to have any intrinsic or unique value, this one may just become a regular shooter (which is what I bought it for, anyway).

Barry

 

[AussieTH]

There are many wiser owls than I on these forums (like most) but here is a little observation that may have some merit or jog some thinking.

“America Remembers” put out two limited edition Walkers as either Texas Rangers or Lone Star State Tribute. They were both much more highly ornate and engraved than yours is and both had wooden grips.

There was some similarity with the engraving you have such as one side of the barrel being lettered ‘Texas Rangers’ (note plural) and the single star was on the cylinder not the side of the receiver.

I believe one was 3rd gen Colt and the other was a Uberti.

I do not know how these tribute and commemorative guns come (or came) into being. I suppose it is conceivable that various repro manufactures put out design studies for consideration – some of which may have ‘escaped’ if they were not used. You could have something like that?????

On the other hand somebody may have tried a replication of a commemorative piece and did not finish it so moved it on?

Whatever! If you want to sell it then I am interested in buying it – send me a PM and we will work out a price – keep the white grips if you wish. I do not think it has a great deal of value but I want several Walkers for shooting or more likely I will cannablise it as part of the Walker Long Range Express project, so the gun will stay in the States.

Aye

Tony

 

[marlin4570]

Thanks - Battered wedge help

mykeal,

Thanks for the info to help me locate a wedge. I had never heard of VTI gun parts. I was pleased with the fact they had no minimum order and shipping was reasonable so I ordered an ASM wedge assembly. Meanwhile I was able to clean-up and reform the other wedge. Luckily it was easy to get back in some semblence of it's original self. Enough that it will hold it together. I may try shooting it again this Friday with less than 20 grain loads as I use in my 1858 and 1860. That was probably what they intended with this anyway. I guess the wedge was designed to be the weak link? At least the cylinder pin and barrel assembly are still in good shape.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[mykeal]

The wedge is not intended to be a weak part. Unfortunately ASM, and other Italian manufacturers, went through a period of less than desirable metal finishing on many parts, and the lack of heat treatment (and thus hardness) was not uncommon.

You can actually achieve the necessary surface hardness at home with the use of a compound called Kasenite. Many home amateur gunsmiths use it with good results. If you wish to try it you can usually find it at places like Brownell's or Midway USA; just google Kasenite.

 

[StrawHat]

Took my Walker Snubby out the other day. You may recall I picked up a Walker which someone had shortened to a 5" barrel. First shot and the front sight was airborne! Now, Colts never did have a great sighting set up on the C&Bs but without a front sight it really is poor.

I have a new sight I will let into the barrel and work on the action a bit. A new set of stag grips will be made then. When done, I will post photos.

 

[marlin4570]

FFFG vs FFG

While reading through the forum today, I saw an older post and I believe the post stated 50 grains FFG for the Walker not FFFG. From my understanding there is a big difference. I can't find the reference. But, when people are shooting 50 to 60 grains, which are they using FFG or FFFG? I bought my first Uberti 1860 Colt several years ago and thought FFFG was for pistols and FFG was for rifles. Could I be mistaken? Thanks in advance.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

As far as I am concerned knowing that ffg BP is a Coarse Rifle powder and fffg is a Finer Pistol powder, you can use either one you like... rule a thumb for rifles is 0 to .45 cal use fffg ... .50 cal and above ffg Bp.
ffg shoots tighter groups in pistols for me ... try loads that work best for you under your conditions is what I recommend.
Jus' my 2 cents on it.
I don't shoot 60gr loads in walkers, not even 50gr...I use 42gr fffg in Dragoons, Walkers, & ROAs as a Max. In Carts i use 35 ffg max for .45Colt conversions.

 

[Ginormous]

sltm1's loading lever catch

I just wanted to thank sltm1 for fabricating a loading lever latch in a patina finish for me. Stealing his original pic here and linking it to his post in this thread, for those of you who have no idea what I am talking about.

Looks and works great! And as he mentions, it doesn't slide off in a holster.

Cool fix. Thanks sltm1!

 

[Ginormous]

I don't shoot 60gr loads in walkers, not even 50gr...

Smokin_Gun, this may very well border on sacrilege!

 

[madcratebuilder]

Below book, good buy.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131630298

A cheap one.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131467065

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131653192

 

[NobleSniper]

Would like to have a good looksee of this one

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=131463567

 

[marlin4570]

1847 Walker Wedge Issue

I had a wedge get serverly abused when shooting my new, old Walker made by ASM in 1986. I received a new wedge from VTI. I purchased an ASM version. I noticed this one wouldn't go in at all. It is a bit larger than the one from my Walker, seems wider. Of course the one from my Walker has been mangled. So when this new one wouldn't fit, I noticed my cylinder pin/arbor and barrel front end assy. don't fit very well. I am wondering if anyone else has had this issue and how it was fixed. I don't think the pin has pulled out. In fact the opposite is true. If you have the barrel assy on the pistol and look at the wedge slot, the front edge of the cylinder pin/arbor is visible at the front of the barrel assy slot. At the back of the slot, the arbor slot is back further than the slot in the barrel assy. It looks like to fix it you would have to either file the rear of the barrel assy slot or the front of the arbor pin slot. Anyone seen such an issue before? How did you fix it? It looks like they adjusted for this from the factory by putting in a narrower wedge?

 

[madcratebuilder]

If you have the barrel assy on the pistol and look at the wedge slot, the front edge of the cylinder pin/arbor is visible at the front of the barrel assy slot. At the back of the slot, the arbor slot is back further than the slot in the barrel assy.

That's the way it's suppose to be. The wedge locks between the front of the arbor slot and the back of the barrel lug slot. The end of the arbor should bottom out in the barrel lug just as the lug touches the frame. A coupe of thousandth clearance here is OK.

ALWAYS file on the least expensive part. If you feel the wedge is to wide for your revolver you can narrow it up some.

 

[mykeal]

Actually I wouldn't file material off the wedge. It should be hardened, probably is surface hardened only, and removing material will 1) be difficult and 2) leave the wedge subject to damage just like the first one was.

With the barrel assembly installed how much cylinder end play do you have? If it's a large gap then you need to remove material down at the intersection between the frame and the barrel assembly, where the locating pins are. If there's a gap there then the pins are too long or are not fully inserted in the frame. Also possible the holes for the pins are too shallow.

I'm assuming the arbor is not bottoming in the barrel assembly. That needs to be determined also. Use modeling clay on the end of the arbor.

If none of the above leads to a solution opening the slot in the arbor is possible. It's also hardened, so this won't be easy. The arbor should be fully hardened as opposed to just surface hardened, although that may not be true, so this has the potential of getting loose over time, just like the deforming wedge.

Of the two the wedge is easier to replace, so if you have the choice of modifying the wedge or the arbor, choose the wedge. You can always reharden the wedge with Kasenite, or have a gunsmith do it.

 

[marlin4570]

With the hammer back, I measure .035" cylinder gap. Seems huge compared to my Blackhawk! I measured the width at each end of both wedges figuring that is where the original didn't get damaged. The old wedge measures .629" and . 585". The new wedge measures .673" and .630". I suppose the insertion end is the one that matters so there is a .045" difference in the two wedges at the insertion end.

There is no daylight at the intersection of the frame and barrel assembly. I do see how removing some material here would close the gap and bring the barrel assembly back and thus allow the larger wedge to go in. Do you suppose they made the adjustment at the factory with the wedge vs the intersection area?

I'm not removing any material yet! I do appreciate your responses as I figure out what to do.

 

[madcratebuilder]

A .035 gap is excessive, .008 would be about ideal. Much tighter and fouling build up at the gap can restrict the rotation of the cylinder. Colt addressed that issue with the Dragoon by adding a radius to the mouth of the barrel. The Walker has a larger, flat area, as fouling builds up on the face of the cylinder it may cause a problem. This was one of the original complaints about the Walker and the Paterson.

The revolver well shoot fine with the .035 gap, you just have a drop in muzzle velocity.

I do see how removing some material here would close the gap and bring the barrel assembly back and thus allow the larger wedge to go in.

Ideally you have the arbor bottom in the lug just as it touches, or .001-.002 from touching the barrel lug, and the barrel gap should be at about .008. The only way to reduce the gap is remove material from the bottom of the frame. The problem is getting the two alignment pins out. I have done two revolvers and had to make new pins, I mangled the old ones getting them out.

If it was my revolver I would not worry about the gap, just arbor to lug fit and then wedge fit.

Have you read the two "tuning a Pietta" pages that are listed on several threads here? They use a 51 Navy but the theory is the same.

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_One.pdf
http://www.theopenrange.net/articles/Tuning_the_Pietta_Part_Two.pdf

It lightly touches on the arbor fit and covers fitting a wedge.

 

[b55baron]

I shot my Walker for the first time today. Actually, it was the first time I shot anything blackpowder. My dad has a Ruger Old Army, so he showed how to load everything.

What a gun! The recoil was a lot less than I expected but the smoke and noise were incredible. We had people from adjacent ranges coming over to see what was making all the racket.

The only problem we had was the spent caps falling off the nipples and occasionally jamming the gun. After 6-7 cylinders, one fell in the hole at the base of the hammer and eventually locked it up. Fortunately, we got all six rounds fired before it completely jammed. In taking the cylinder off, the spent cap fell down to the hole at the top of the trigger and we pulled it out with pliers. Since the gun was apart, we called it a day.

Thanks to mykeal for the information on removing the cylinder. It took all of 30 seconds to tap the wedge out and pull the barrel and cylinder. After cleaning and lubing everything, it's good to go again.