Targa
Member
Here you go sir. Backorder it from impact guns, this is how I got my .475 BFR when pickin’s were slim. It wasn’t a very long wait. https://www.impactguns.com/revolver...l-5-shot-unfluted-cylinder-736676008704-0870/
The Top 5 Big Bore Cartridge Alternatives with Less Recoil
- Thread starter Onty
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Here you go sir. Backorder it from impact guns, this is how I got my .475 BFR when pickin’s were slim. It wasn’t a very long wait. https://www.impactguns.com/revolver...l-5-shot-unfluted-cylinder-736676008704-0870/
TTv2
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I'm busy atm, but later tonight I'ma measure the chambers on my other .45 Colt's and let you know the results.
EDIT: Ruger Redhawk .45 Colt/ACP measured out to .482, Taurus Judge PD was .4815. Doesn't get much more "stock" than that.
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P Flados
Member
More than a couple of decades ago, I went to the top end of the TC/Ruger only 45 Colt loadings with H110 for a Contender. I am sure some of my brass (multiple head stamps) got used for more than a handful of loadings. I never once had a case split. I am confident the "weak brass" is myth, not fact. Sloppy chambers is an entirely different issue and totally unrelated to "weak brass".
Old Hobo
Member
As far as efficiency goes, the .41mag beats the .44 mag. Why? For most jobs, the .41 mag can kill like a .44 mag. However, the .41 mag uses less lead and less gunpowder to get the same killing job done. For reloaders, the .41 mag. makes a lot of sense.
https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/loading-the-forgotten-41/138378
"The final question everyone asks is, "What's it good for?" Anything you can do with a .44 Magnum can be, with proper load and bullet selection, done with the .41. Handgun hunters like it, and it has a following among silhouette shooters. Obviously it could be used for defense, and it's a fun plinker so I guess the real answer is, 'Anything you'd like.'"
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".41 Remington Magnum (The Perfect Revolver Cartridge?)"
https://skyaboveus.com/hunting-shooting/41-Remington-Magnum-The-Perfect-Revolver-Cartridge
"LJ Bonham is a semi-subsistence hunter, hunting magazine editor, and firearms enthusiast who lives in the Rocky Mountains.
"The .41 Remington Magnum is the best revolver cartridge. Period. A bold statement given there are so many other good, useful revolver rounds out there. The truth is, when all factors are weighed- lethality, accuracy, recoil, and versatility- nothing eclipses the .41 Rem. Mag.
"By the early 1960s, Keith believed he had erred with the .44, and he wanted to redress the issue. In his opinion, he should have made an intermediate round first: more powerful than the .357 but less than the .44. Keith still felt police officers were not well served by either the .357 or the .44 Magnums. The .357 over penetrated human targets with the bullets available at the time, and the big, bad .44, which he intended for hunting, had far too much recoil for the average officer.
"Keith collaborated with his good friend and lawman, Skeeter Skelton, to find a 'Holy Grail' police cartridge. After some deliberation, the duo decided on a .41 caliber, 200 grain bullet propelled at 900 feet per second at the muzzle. Keith, an avid hunter, also wanted a second power level—a 210 grain bullet driven at 1300 - 1400 fps.
"Skelton later stated he and Keith roped executives from both Smith & Wesson and Remington into a discussion about their ideas at a gun industry convention in 1963. Remington agreed to develop the proposed round if S&W would build the guns to chamber it.
"Much to Keith’s dismay, Remington dropped the low pressure, law enforcement-focused load and introduced the full-power version (210 grains at 1250 fps.) in 1964. Smith and Wesson also let Keith down when they refused to chamber their medium-sized K-Frame revolvers for the round and instead introduced the large, N-Frame Model 57 with a six or eight-inch barrel and adjustable sights. To appeal to the law enforcement market, the Massachusetts-based gun concern also offered the Model 58: a four-inch barreled Model 57 with fixed sights.
"If so many shooters didn’t want the .41, why is it the best revolver cartridge ever made? The .41 Remington Magnum does what its rivals do, but does it better in many ways.
"When standard factory ammo is considered, the .41 delivers 25 percent more energy than the .357 Magnum with a wider, heavier bullet. This means it hits a target harder, makes a wider wound cavity, and, all things equal, will penetrate as deep or deeper than Keith’s first magnum. All this with the same recoil as a medium-framed .357 when the .41 is fired from a large-framed revolver.
"It is true the .44 Remington Magnum produces more energy than the .41 if standard factory loads are compared (800 ft-lbs. vs. 700 ft-lbs.). The other truth is the terminal effect on either an animal or human doesn’t change much between those two numbers. A deer hit with a .41 and then a .44 is hard-pressed to tell the difference. They make similar wound channels to similar depths. If the results are the same, why put up with the .44’s much heavier recoil?
"When it comes to self-defense use, the .41 Magnum is far superior to the .44 Magnum. The .41 will do everything to an assailant the .44 will do, and it is the only big-bore magnum most shooters can manage with a one hand hold on the gun. This is more important than many people think. While a two-handed hold is the modern, preferred method, many times it is necessary to shoot one-handed. Your off hand might have to hold a flashlight, baton, etc. You might need it to hold your attacker or push them away from you. The .41 allows quicker, more accurate follow-up shots either one or two-handed than the .44 ever will.
"The .41’s virtues have given it a renaissance in the last few years. Shooters have rediscovered it and there are more loads, from more ammo companies, available than ever before. Hand-loaders have known for decades the .41 will keep pace with the .44. The .44, however, does pull ahead when the heaviest bullets (300 grain and up) are used. For a dual purpose, hunting/self-defense gun, the .41 is far superior to the .44 in most respects. Dirty Harry’s favorite is best reserved for hunting where it can do what Elmer Keith envisioned in 1955."
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https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/loading-the-forgotten-41/138378
"The final question everyone asks is, "What's it good for?" Anything you can do with a .44 Magnum can be, with proper load and bullet selection, done with the .41. Handgun hunters like it, and it has a following among silhouette shooters. Obviously it could be used for defense, and it's a fun plinker so I guess the real answer is, 'Anything you'd like.'"
---------------------------------------
".41 Remington Magnum (The Perfect Revolver Cartridge?)"
https://skyaboveus.com/hunting-shooting/41-Remington-Magnum-The-Perfect-Revolver-Cartridge
"LJ Bonham is a semi-subsistence hunter, hunting magazine editor, and firearms enthusiast who lives in the Rocky Mountains.
"The .41 Remington Magnum is the best revolver cartridge. Period. A bold statement given there are so many other good, useful revolver rounds out there. The truth is, when all factors are weighed- lethality, accuracy, recoil, and versatility- nothing eclipses the .41 Rem. Mag.
"By the early 1960s, Keith believed he had erred with the .44, and he wanted to redress the issue. In his opinion, he should have made an intermediate round first: more powerful than the .357 but less than the .44. Keith still felt police officers were not well served by either the .357 or the .44 Magnums. The .357 over penetrated human targets with the bullets available at the time, and the big, bad .44, which he intended for hunting, had far too much recoil for the average officer.
"Keith collaborated with his good friend and lawman, Skeeter Skelton, to find a 'Holy Grail' police cartridge. After some deliberation, the duo decided on a .41 caliber, 200 grain bullet propelled at 900 feet per second at the muzzle. Keith, an avid hunter, also wanted a second power level—a 210 grain bullet driven at 1300 - 1400 fps.
"Skelton later stated he and Keith roped executives from both Smith & Wesson and Remington into a discussion about their ideas at a gun industry convention in 1963. Remington agreed to develop the proposed round if S&W would build the guns to chamber it.
"Much to Keith’s dismay, Remington dropped the low pressure, law enforcement-focused load and introduced the full-power version (210 grains at 1250 fps.) in 1964. Smith and Wesson also let Keith down when they refused to chamber their medium-sized K-Frame revolvers for the round and instead introduced the large, N-Frame Model 57 with a six or eight-inch barrel and adjustable sights. To appeal to the law enforcement market, the Massachusetts-based gun concern also offered the Model 58: a four-inch barreled Model 57 with fixed sights.
"If so many shooters didn’t want the .41, why is it the best revolver cartridge ever made? The .41 Remington Magnum does what its rivals do, but does it better in many ways.
"When standard factory ammo is considered, the .41 delivers 25 percent more energy than the .357 Magnum with a wider, heavier bullet. This means it hits a target harder, makes a wider wound cavity, and, all things equal, will penetrate as deep or deeper than Keith’s first magnum. All this with the same recoil as a medium-framed .357 when the .41 is fired from a large-framed revolver.
"It is true the .44 Remington Magnum produces more energy than the .41 if standard factory loads are compared (800 ft-lbs. vs. 700 ft-lbs.). The other truth is the terminal effect on either an animal or human doesn’t change much between those two numbers. A deer hit with a .41 and then a .44 is hard-pressed to tell the difference. They make similar wound channels to similar depths. If the results are the same, why put up with the .44’s much heavier recoil?
"When it comes to self-defense use, the .41 Magnum is far superior to the .44 Magnum. The .41 will do everything to an assailant the .44 will do, and it is the only big-bore magnum most shooters can manage with a one hand hold on the gun. This is more important than many people think. While a two-handed hold is the modern, preferred method, many times it is necessary to shoot one-handed. Your off hand might have to hold a flashlight, baton, etc. You might need it to hold your attacker or push them away from you. The .41 allows quicker, more accurate follow-up shots either one or two-handed than the .44 ever will.
"The .41’s virtues have given it a renaissance in the last few years. Shooters have rediscovered it and there are more loads, from more ammo companies, available than ever before. Hand-loaders have known for decades the .41 will keep pace with the .44. The .44, however, does pull ahead when the heaviest bullets (300 grain and up) are used. For a dual purpose, hunting/self-defense gun, the .41 is far superior to the .44 in most respects. Dirty Harry’s favorite is best reserved for hunting where it can do what Elmer Keith envisioned in 1955."
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TTv2
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I can't speak to other brands of brass, but Starline advertises their .45 Colt as having been tested at .44 Mag pressures and is apparently built for such pressures. I have non-Starline .45 Colt brass that I have loaded above 14k PSI, but for any very hot .45 Colt loads, I stick with Starline.
That said, I agree, I think most MODERN .45 Colt brass is perfectly adequate for use in the 30 to 40k PSI range.
Remarkable, enlightening post, especially how E. Keith and S. Skelton tried to create 41 magnum as police round and convince Remington and Smith&Wesson but were bypassed by those who thought they knew better.
As a handgun hunting round, using appropriate bullet, 41 Magnum comes into its own. Along those 210-230 grainers, here is 265 grains LBT, with .320" dia meplat.
https://www.mp-molds.com/product/mp-413-265-wnfp-41-cal-hollow-point-mold-multichoice/
This bullet could be lunched easily at 1100-1200 fps and I bet that any deer or wild boar, if hit in right place, will go down.
Palladan44
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Yeah but I believe the 44 Mag is sub-optimal for this purpose. Lot that can go wrong even with a perfect shot. I wouldn't want to risk NOT killing the animal. That's never been a worry of mine, but in this case it could happen.
Smaug
Member
Yes, great post, Old Hobo!
In all fairness though, Keith & Skelton needed the financial backing of Remington and S&W to pull it off. Those companies needed to do their own analysis before putting their money down. They decided (apparently) that police wouldn't buy it, as they were happy with the 357.
Not saying it wouldn't have been a good gun, just that the revolver market was saturated:
- 38 Spl was still common for the everyday beat cop
- 357 for the guys who felt they needed more without going big bore (did cops have a "light magnum" load available, so it didn't over-penetrate?)
- 44 Spl and 45 ACP for a bit harder hitting than 38 but not so much that over-penetration would be a concern
Palladan44
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Not that I know of, in the old days anyways. The compromise was usually the. 38 +p such as the "FBI load" With 357s it was usually the full powered 158gr or 125gr stuff that made a big "boom" rather than the "pop" of any .38... to put it scientific terms
It wasn't until the 1990s and 2000s that any factory available 357 Mag cartridges were lightened up. The ones that were lightened up were usually rounds where Personal Protection was the end goal. The Remington Golden Sabres were one of the first I can remember. They were slightly more than a .38+p which IMO is the sweet spot for a SD round.
Plenty of power, but lighter recoil, probably less flash, plenty of expansion with just the right penetration...yatta yatta. But up until then, the .38+p were the compromise. By then most of LE switched to semi autos.
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
After watching literally dozens of such critters taken with everything from the .41Mag on up, I disagree. Whether it's a .44Mag or a .500JRH, launch a comparable bullet of comparable sectional density (.25-.27) at comparable velocity and penetration is equally comparable. The result is basically the same. Bigger bullets may make bigger holes and produce shorter blood trails but they all end in the same place.......a dead critter.
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