The Top 5 Big Bore Cartridge Alternatives with Less Recoil

[.308 Norma]

I suppose metallic silhouette shooting was one of the main drive for bigger handgun calibers?

No sir, not exactly. IHMSA was one of the main driving forces for the development of the .357 Maximum (which is a smaller caliber than a 44) for use by metallic silhouette shooters competing in the "Production Revolver" category.
Cartridges like the 7mm IHMSA (a necked down .300 Savage case and also a smaller caliber than a 44) also came about because of metallic silhouette shooters competing in the IHMSA "Unlimited" category.
There might be a few larger than 44 calibers that came about because of IHMSA shooters, but I don't know of any. Full-house 44 Magnum loads are usually fairly reliable anyway at tipping over those 200-meter rams - if you hit them anywhere except low on a leg.

 

[.38 Special]

This thread got me all het up about the .480 Bisley again, so I set off across the internet to buy one. So far I haven't found a single one available, at least not NIB.

 

[jar]

I always preferred and shot 44 Special out of my 44 Magnum.

 

[WisBorn]

With this thread I needed to Google when the 480 Ruger and 500 S&W were introduced?
2003 both of them. I thought the 480 was first????

 

[Smaug]

Great video.

One thing I have to say though is that it would apply mostly to factory loads. Why would I want a 41 Mag when I could use my 44 Mag and just load a lighter bullet? or eve 44 Spl? I suppose on the long range end of things, the 41 would be better, due to being smaller, but the 44 would hit harder, due to the larger bore.

Re. 45 Colt +P instead of 454 Casull, this sounds OK on the face of it, but 45 Colt brass is just not very strong, even if you have a Blackhawk or Contender that is. Our buddy Chuck Hawks did an excellent job explaining it. A better solution (again, only available to handloaders) is to get a 454 Casull gun and reload to 45 Colt +P levels. Then you have the strong gun, the strong brass and can shoot anything from old school 45 Colt-level loads up to full-on 454 Casull. (with 75% more recoil than a full-house 44 Mag.... no thanks!)

 

[DR505]

.
Re. 45 Colt +P instead of 454 Casull, this sounds OK on the face of it, but 45 Colt brass is just not very strong, even if you have a Blackhawk or Contender that is. Our buddy Chuck Hawks did an excellent job explaining it. A better solution (again, only available to handloaders) is to get a 454 Casull gun and reload to 45 Colt +P levels. Then you have the strong gun, the strong brass and can shoot anything from old school 45 Colt-level loads up to full-on 454 Casull. (with 75% more recoil than a full-house 44 Mag.... no thanks!)

Reading both Pearce and Linebaugh they seem to disagree with your statement on .45 Colt brass, at least of the Starline variety. They have found it will stand up to very high pressure with no ill effects. If referencing one of the old BP balloon head types then it is a different story.

 

[Palladan44]

.44 Mag w/ 240 or 250gr LSWC and about 7 or 8 grains of Unique..... Remember the sound of the "boom" and the puff of smoke in the Dirty Harry Movies... yeah.

 

[Smaug]

Reading both Pearce and Linebaugh they seem to disagree with your statement on .45 Colt brass, at least of the Starline variety. They have found it will stand up to very high pressure with no ill effects. If referencing one of the old BP balloon head types then it is a different story.

I guess Chuck didn't test Starline brass, but found that Federal, Winchester and Remington brass didn't hold up that well; just a few loadings before they split.

I don't know if Federal, Winchester and Remington brass is considered balloon head, but if it's modern, I think not.

Chuck mentioned that Speer (I think) recommended to only use new or once-fired brass in the +P loads.

 

[DR505]

Chuck mentioned that Speer (I think) recommended to only use new or once-fired brass in the +P loads.

Since there is no SAAMI pressure standard for .45 Colt +P, what number was Speer using for +P? Standard .45 Colt pressure is 14,000 PSI. Pearce wrote that S&W N-Frames should be quite safe to 23,000 PSI, and Linebaugh published loads for SA Rugers at 32,000 PSI in .45 Colt. Starline brass was recommended for these.

 

[Onty]

One big problem with 45 Colt revolvers is oversize chambers. Talking about section where case resides. Here is how it looks like:



Photo is from this thread https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=57195.0 . They are talking about neck sizing only, to reduce stress on brass. This method is OK for one revolver, or others if they have exactly the same chambers. Of course, this is just for low pressure loads. Prolonged shooting and resizing, or going to "Ruger level", will make brass cracking:



If higher pressure loads are desired, the only remedy is a new cylinder with appropriate chamber dimensions. Also, some 45 Colt revolvers have oversize cylinder mouths, going from .454" up to .458" https://www.coltforum.com/threads/over-sized-saa-cylinder-mouth-fix.83809/ . Some smiths offer rechambering 41 or 44 cylinders to 45 Colt, or expensive way, making a new cylinder.

Contrary to oversize cylinder mouths on some revolvers, Ruger with their 45 Colt NMBH for a while went another direction, making cylinder mouths .450" or even less. This is not bad, since it is relatively easy fix by any good smith.

 

[.38 Special]

Regarding the strength of .45 Colt brass, I haven't found it any stronger or weaker than any other brass. Decades ago I sectioned a bunch of samples of various makes and models and found that there really wasn't a lot of variation in key measurements like web thickness - not only between brands, but between different cartridges as well.

Back when I had a five-shot Ruger Bisley, I was loading the Colt to .454 levels. Federal was reputed to be the strongest case available for the Colt but I did find mouth splits to be an issue, so I ended up using several different brands, which all held up to one or two firings. Backing down to mere +P levels - the "Ruger-only" six shot rounds, which for me generally meant a 325 FN at about 1250 FPS - I found that I could use any case that would stand up under its own weight. Brass life was about the same as for any other Magnum cartridge; usually about six loadings.

As far as I can tell, the whole "weak brass" business got its start with balloon head stuff, which is essentially a collector's item now. It hasn't been made in many, many decades and your odds of finding factory ammo using them is essentially zero.

 

[DR505]

Standardized and consistent chamber and throat dimensions seem to be a more modern phenomenon. My S&W .45 Colt revolvers (25-9 or 625-7 MG variety) are all spot on and I have had no issues with brass reloaded many times. I use .452 lead projectiles and keep my pressures at (listed in the reloading data) 20,000 PSI or below. Of course I cannot measure the PSI, so must believe the written load data.

 

[CraigC]

Great video.

One thing I have to say though is that it would apply mostly to factory loads. Why would I want a 41 Mag when I could use my 44 Mag and just load a lighter bullet? or eve 44 Spl? I suppose on the long range end of things, the 41 would be better, due to being smaller, but the 44 would hit harder, due to the larger bore.

Re. 45 Colt +P instead of 454 Casull, this sounds OK on the face of it, but 45 Colt brass is just not very strong, even if you have a Blackhawk or Contender that is. Our buddy Chuck Hawks did an excellent job explaining it. A better solution (again, only available to handloaders) is to get a 454 Casull gun and reload to 45 Colt +P levels. Then you have the strong gun, the strong brass and can shoot anything from old school 45 Colt-level loads up to full-on 454 Casull. (with 75% more recoil than a full-house 44 Mag.... no thanks!)

A lighter bullet in a larger caliber does not accomplish the same thing.

Chuck Hawks was a hack. He might have known some things but I find his sixgun rhetoric is to be dismissed. Linebaugh, Pearce and Taffin are far more credible sources. There is no merit to the myth of weak .45Colt brass. It's simply false and there are decades of collective experience to debunk it.

 

[TTv2]

These days things look bright for 480. Ruger is making SRH and Bisley.

And when we are talking about BFR.500 v/s Ruger Bisley 480, I doubt that game will notice the difference. But some of us will:

View attachment 1109445 View attachment 1109446

Absolutely nothing against BFR revolvers. Many appreciate their quality. I am saddened that BFR doesn't pay more attention to aesthetics of their revolvers. Just my humble opinion...

Comparing a Bisely style to a BFR and then complaining about anesthetics isn't exactly fair. The BFR's selling point is the build quality, not appearance. If you want a pretty revolver that falls apart faster than a Charter Arks then buy a Colt Python.

 

[murf]

45 Colt brass is just not very strong,

i totally disagree with this statement, chuckhawks not withstanding. my "ruger only" 45 long colt reloads are based on john linebaugh and brian pearce loading data and suggestions. my heavy load pushes a 325 grain bullet out of a 4.625" blackhawk @ 1275 fps through the chrony set @ 12'. i use winchester cases and have had no splits so far. i started loading this heavy load back in 2000 when i purchased the gun nib ($299 + tax). i agree with all that say "be careful and pay attention".

luck,

murf

 

[murf]

They are talking about neck sizing only, to reduce stress on brass.

i size all my 45 long colt brass 2/3 of the way down. i have no "chambering issues" with that method.

relatively easy fix by any good smith.

yes, i bought a .4525" throat reamer and cut all the cylinders in my blackhawk. .452" diameter bullets work great in that gun.

murf

 

[Smaug]

i totally disagree with this statement, chuckhawks not withstanding. my "ruger only" 45 long colt reloads are based on john linebaugh and brian pearce loading data and suggestions. my heavy load pushes a 325 grain bullet out of a 4.625" blackhawk @ 1275 fps through the chrony set @ 12'. i use winchester cases and have had no splits so far. i started loading this heavy load back in 2000 when i purchased the gun nib ($299 + tax). i agree with all that say "be careful and pay attention".

luck,

murf

After reading some Taffin, I think Chuck Hawks probably had a gun with oversized chambers. I do trust Taffin.

 

[murf]

After reading some Taffin, I think Chuck Hawks probably had a gun with oversized chambers. I do trust Taffin.

taffin is at the same level of expertise.

the 45 colt chamber is tapered from .486" at the base to .480" at the mouth. most sizers are carbide with a ring that sizes everything to the same diameter. full length sizing a case then firing in a tapered chamber is going to work the heck out of the base of the case. but the case can still be reloaded and last a long time with normal pressure loads.

luck,

murf

ref: https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

 

[Onty]

Comparing a Bisely style to a BFR and then complaining about anesthetics isn't exactly fair. The BFR's selling point is the build quality, not appearance. If you want a pretty revolver that falls apart faster than a Charter Arks then buy a Colt Python.

As BSME, and mechanical designer, I can tell you that design/aesthetics quality is also part of overall quality, not just manufacturing quality. In other words, having both on high level, makes better selling product.

 

[Onty]

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

On 41 Magnum and 44 Magnum difference from case chamber base to mouth is just .0016". On Colt 45 that difference is .0056". If chamber was cut to SAAMI specification, no wander that 45 Colt cases bulge.

However, I had Ruger Bisley in 45 Colt, and loaded some stiff loads of 4227 behind 325 SWC, but I didn't notice any dramatic bulge. I would say almost the same as on 41 and 44 Magnum Rugers I had at that time.

 

[Riomouse911]

If I would add a 480 Ruger it would have to be a Super Redhawk with a 7.5" barrel. I like the Bisley, but not as much as the SRH. I would look for the gray/pewter color they had about 20 years ago. It would get a scope or red dot. I hope todays red dots can handle the recoil. I destroyed a couple of Leopolds in the early 2000's with 44mags....

Here is a bit of a teaser. It’s a .454 rather than a .480, but all the rest fits your want list.



Walnut burl panels by Chigs Grips..

Stay safe.

 

[WisBorn]

Here is a bit of a teaser. It’s a .454 rather than a .480, but all the rest fits your want list.

View attachment 1109897 View attachment 1109898

Walnut burl panels by Chigs Grips..

Stay safe.

Very nice!!! Love the grip panels also

 

[TTv2]

taffin is at the same level of expertise.

the 45 colt chamber is tapered from .486" at the base to .480" at the mouth. most sizers are carbide with a ring that sizes everything to the same diameter. full length sizing a case then firing in a tapered chamber is going to work the heck out of the base of the case. but the case can still be reloaded and last a long time with normal pressure loads.

luck,

murf

ref: https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

How do we know all .45 Colt chambers are .486? I just measured a conversion cylinder made by Howell and the area where the base of the .45 Colt case would be is .482".

What's on paper and what is reality are two different things.

 

[JDeere]

.44 mag sbh with bisley grips. 50 full house 240 gr loads in a session is quite enjoyable imo. I never let recoil get to me since I learned how to handle it properly. I was in the lgs the other day and they had one of those new S&W 350 legends. I was thinking about it but left with out it. Decided it was just to darn big and heavy...

 

[murf]

How do we know all .45 Colt chambers are .486? I just measured a conversion cylinder made by Howell and the area where the base of the .45 Colt case would be is .482".

What's on paper and what is reality are two different things.

custom cylinders are cut without the taper (most of the time). my linebaugh cylinder chamber is straight cut about like your .482". custom is custom ... stock is stock.

murf