This is funny! -- No worries about McCain in 2008.

[utahminirevolver]

I have a lot of respect for Reverend Falwell. So I was surprised when he spoke approvingly about Senator McCain. My understanding of McCain's ideas is: he favors illegal immigration, he opposes our right to keep and bear arms, he favors gay marriage, he wants suppression of free speech for conservatives (the McCain/Feingold law) and generally has a leftist position on most matters. Okay, I respect McCain's service in the military, just like John Kerry's, but I strongly disagree with both of these guys about their current politics.

Rev. Falwell disapproves of ex-NY Mayor Guiliani for president because of his pro-gay and anti-self-defense agenda, I think, and did not actually endorse Sen. McCain.

I hope he doesn't.

 

[ArmedBear]

Its funny you should mention Falwell and morals. When I think Falwell, moral is not something that comes to mind. If you'd like to ask the SEC about it, I'm sure they'd be happy to tell you about the charges of fraud and deceit against Falwell's church.
Ask the people who lost all their money in those church construction bonds issued by falwell's church.

Oh, but GTI, you don't understand!

"Morals" have nothing to do with the actual 10 Commandments like those pesky ones about stealing or taking the name of God in vain (this has nothing to do with saying "damn it" when you stub your toe, BTW).

"Moral" means a fat man in a suit and tie who concerns himself greatly with the sex lives of other people.

 

[Ala Dan]

Nothing Too Choose From

I sure hope that the 'publicans don't strike out in '08, and leave the
door wide open for that blonde headed horses rear end from NY~!

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

The positive of a clinton presidency will be that we will not longer have to listen to all the idiotic Bush-bashing from the vast left-wing media.

During Reagan's days, ABC, NBC, CBS were always showing soup lines and poverty, during Klinton's, it was all success stories of the poor buying their first homes and lifting themselves out of poverty.


Nice to have the media on your side.

 

[ArmedBear]

Well, I think the GOP does understand the difference between the fundamentalist Falwell followers and the evangelicals at Calvary Chapel and the many non-denominational Christian churches inspired by them.

There are many conservative Christians who don't believe that every man who pounds on the Bible is legit, or that those who claim to be "moral" quite often aren't. I'd venture that would be the majority, actually, since Christians tend to read the New Testament quite a bit, and that was one of Jesus' most significant messages.

You know all that "Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!" stuff, and the moneychangers in the temple thing?

I don't know Jerry Falwell and therefore I cannot begin to know what he's really like. But it's safe to say that he doesn't have a big vote of confidence among all those Christians that the GOP wants to court.

Bottom line: I think that, like John Kerry, John McCain might believe his own hype way too much. That's generally the precursor to a big fall.

I'm guessing that both parties' candidates for President in '08 might be a surprise to us. The world is changing rapidly. New media and communication had a big impact in '04, and they were in their infancy, politically.

 

[CAnnoneer]

You mean promoting non-embryonic stem cells that actually have a successful track record, while objecting to the cells that must be gathered from murdered embryos? Irrational, I agree.

I encourage you to inform yourself of the facts without overreliance on what some politicritter would say in congress to rile up the base.

There are only a few cell lines that are approved by our fearless leader, many of which are of dubious quality. More cell lines are necessary for a number of technical reasons. However, our hypocrites in power would deny that to our science, in essence giving away the technological lead to Europe, Korea, and Japan. If they do get sick though, don't be surprised to see them hopping on the next plane abroad.

Also, fertilized eggs are leftovers from fertility clinics for in-vitro pregnancies. Due to lack of space and funding, they are routinely dumped down the drain or in the garbage or in the biohazard incinerators. So, it is okay to destroy them, just not to use them to cure people? Bleh.

Methinks 99% of the vicious opponents of HESCR would do a 180deg turn the minute they themselves or somebody they care about gets sick and would benefit from such. Kind of like Nancy Reagan...

 

[CAnnoneer]

If praying to a Christian God before passing laws was ok for Thomas Jefferson , Benjamin Franklin and other right wing maniacs who helped creat the USA it should be ok for public schools etc.

Should we follow them in every respect then, just because they did it and they are infallible across the board? They also owned slaves, slept with slaves, bathed maybe once a month, et cetera, et cetera. That cannot be a serious argument.

When a church claims preeminence on morality, then they also claim preeminence on political ethics and thus on politics. Before you even know it, you'll end up in a theocracy. No, thanks!

Also, while a church may have something meaningful to say about ethics and interpersonal relations, they have no business talking about "the structure of the universe" or try to compete with science on the nature of objective truth. On that, they are abysmally weak and make a horde of enemies for no good reason. Virtually all bible-thumpers curiously run to modern medicine when they get sick. I guess prayer is not enough?

 

[Ivy Mike]

How do you "remove secularism"? Please explain?

Anyone that ran on a campaign to bring morality to public education would get my vote.... if that meant teaching religion in school so much the better... what American public schools need is less not more seculaism in my opinion... perhaps morality might rank higher than condom use for schools if Falwell and/or McCain had a chance to be heard...

Did you read the quote I posted? The one where Falwell wants the schools run by Christians? While I like the idea of schools being privately run, if you're getting government money to pay for them (in the form of a voucher) it shouldn't have religion in it. I don't care if a teacher is a christian or muslim or atheist, as long as they stick to the separation of church and state.

Morality and ethics are good things. Why would you want to pay for religious classes in schools? Take your children to church if you want them to learn religion, I don't really want myth and legend being taught as fact. You do not need religion to have morals.

Why would condoms have anything to do with morals or ethics? The simple fact is that teenagers have loads of hormones running rampant and they aren't great at controlling them yet. It makes people of that age a little nuts. I guess this bears repeating, but young people are going to have sex. It will happen and I'd imagine a large number of people on this board had sex in their teens...I sure did. I also know that when teachers preached abstinence, it didn't do any good. Abstinence is NOT education. Teaching kids about sex and showing them the proper way to protect themselves is education. Thats what school is there for...education.
Fact is that sex has little to do with morality and insisting that it does is silly.

 

[Camp David]

Did you read the quote I posted? The one where Falwell wants the schools run by Christians? While I like the idea of schools being privately run, if you're getting government money to pay for them (in the form of a voucher) it shouldn't have religion in it. I don't care if a teacher is a christian or muslim or atheist, as long as they stick to the separation of church and state.

Sorry... I judge a teacher first by how well they teach and secondly by what their religious affiliation may be! If we as a nation were to have public schools run by Christians and some by Jews and some by Muslims I doubt these students would turn out quite so bad as how public schools manage to fail their students today! Indeed, perhaps we as a nation could follow Faldwell's suggestion and dump the entire NEA-sponsored secular pedagogy and hire some real religious fanatics and teach our kids morals and respect for elders! I would support that with my heart and soul!

If secular godless schools are so positive why have they failed so miserably?

 

[ball3006]

I have ZERO respect for any TV preacher......

all they are in it for is the money. McCain is a RINO, pure and simple. He in anti- second ammentment, pure and simple. McCain is no hero. He just got slapped upside the head by a NVA jailer one too many times and Tedly Kennedy got to him and brain washed him before he got his senses back. The only reason he did not run as a dimocrat is he had no chance of winning the primary.

I have voted Republican all my life but I WILL NOT, vote for McCain..........chris3

 

[Ivy Mike]

Camp David, how have schools failed their students? School is largely what you make of it. The material is there and it hasn't changed. The three R's are still alive and well.

How about we leave the teaching of morals and ethics in the home where it belongs. Religious fanatics teach dogma, not morals. Place emphasis on personal responsibility and respect for others (no religion required) and watch improvements come about.

I care about the quality of the teacher first. The teacher's religious affiliation should NEVER come into the picture. They are not there to teach religion and I would appreciate them leaving out of schools. Students go to school to learn the basics. They go to learn facts and about the workings of the natural world. There are very few instances in which religion should ever enter the schools. Mention it in a history class when relevant and possibly in some literature. Otherwise, it has no place in science and certainly not in government/civics classes.

back to the topic at hand
I've got no problem with dumping a wasteful system and providing a similar level of schooling at less cost. Lets just make sure it adheres to the principles our country was founded on. If you want to teach respect for others (not just elders) and ethics (morals are decided by the individual and can't be taught) then do so. You don't need religion to do that.

I'd love to hear how our schools have failed our students so badly. If our schools are turning out such crap, why does America have more colleges and universities than any other country? Why are more top universities of the world located on our shores? Why is the US maintaining enrollment levels competitive to many other countries. You may see this as a bad thing, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how.

 

[afsnco]

Clean,

Look at standardized scores for our HS students. They're abysmal compared to their counterparts in other developed nations, and we spend a lot more money on education than the vast majority of other countries. Once at the university level, much of the student body comes from the elite of foreign countries. American students have a tough time getting admitted to top notch schools.

The reason they're doing so poorly is that there's not as much of the 3 R's being taught. Instead public schools are more akin to indoctrination centers. Leftist indoctrination, of course. Like secular humanism/atheism for example.

Look at Columbine and other school shootings. Not so long ago students could take their rifles to school because they planned to deer hunt immediately after classes. No problem. Killing their fellow students never happened and never crossed their minds. That was because Christianity was taught in the public schools, complete with Bible stories, etc. Kids were taught that there were not only secular but also eternal consequences for crimes such as murder. Nowadays kids don't receive such instruction. Instead, secular humanism/atheism is what they're taught. And the logical consequence of such teaching is that they believe they won't face eternal damnation for murder. So why not do it, for a thrill? Why is murder wrong? There can be no concrete answer because there's no concrete moral basis to refrain from murder in the atheistic worldview. If you say simply that it's wrong because society says it's wrong, then if society's laws change, murder will be fine and dandy. An extreme example, but you get my drift.

 

[Ivy Mike]

Standardized tests have come under fire as of late anyway regarding what they actually prove. They aren't abysmal either and I'd love to see something showing that. If you'd like a little reading material, take a look at this.
http://nces.ed.gov/Pressrelease/reform/
While it shows the US students not performing as well at grade 12 as foreign students, the push for college education has really mitigated the importance of such a thing. The US is 4th in college enrollment per capita beind Canada, S. Korea and Australia. While we aren't #1, we are in the top 5 and because our population is many times larger, we have more students in college which is what is truly important.
The job prospects for students without college are not as good as those who have college.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-university-students-countries-map.html (college enrollment source)

I don't quite understand how a religious belief relates to academic performance. Perhaps you can show a study that shows such relation. I think what you'll find is that US students haven't gotten worse, its simply that other countries have developed and are finally providing competition. I'm not quite sure how atheism or humanism is leftist indoctrination. Maybe you could explain that one to me as well. I guess those dirty godless commies are coming back around.

Yes, lets look back at teens killing others...teens like the James brothers and Billy the Kid. Killing is nothing new and teens have been killing people for a long time. Claiming that good christian upbringing is responsible for the good kids is like claiming that evil rock and roll and video games are responsible for the bad ones. Lets try a little personal responsibility instead.

Kids can still be taught about god, its just that people have finally realized that god belongs in the home and in the church, not in schools. You are basing your argument on the idea that morals and religion are mutually exclusive when it just isn't so.
Our laws are built on rights and liberties, not religious dogma. All humans are equal and as such, have rights. You are free to excercise those rights provided you don't prevent someone else from doing the same thing. No god is required. No christian mythology needed.
If you can show me some evidence for heaven and hell and eternal damnation, I'll be happy to rethink my stance. Otherwise, you're just using fear to keep the kiddies in line.

 

[CAnnoneer]

And the logical consequence of such teaching is that they believe they won't face eternal damnation for murder. So why not do it, for a thrill? Why is murder wrong? There can be no concrete answer because there's no concrete moral basis to refrain from murder in the atheistic worldview.

The world is full of atheists and agnostics. I do not see them running around murdering everybody, although they do not believe in eternal damnation either. Scaring people into being ethical is not really teaching them any ethics, only fear.

The jihadists are highly religious, right? It does not prevent them from doing what they do either. And before you say it is all Islam's fault, consider how much violence was historically done by supposedly devout christians as well.

Any religion is bad. Period. There is no such thing as a "positive irrationality" and objectively unsubstantiated belief is unavoidably irrational.

 

[GoRon]

Any religion is bad. Period. There is no such thing as a "positive irrationality" and objectively unsubstantiated belief is unavoidably irrational.

Then you better give up your narcissistic secular humanist belief system because it is nothing more than a godless religion.

Everybody has a "map of reality" that they live by whether it is thought out and codified or just happened by experience. That is all religion is, a map to help you find your way.

If you think science is somehow immune to the errors and leaps of faith you see in religion then you are naive indeed.

 

[Ivy Mike]

There is no reason to discard your personal beliefs. Just keep them personal and state them as such. Don't try to teach them in a school to impressionable kids. School isn't the place for such a thing anyway.

Lets not start comparing religion to science though. Not only is it way off-topic, but its a good way to embarass religion.

 

[GoRon]

There is no reason to discard your personal beliefs. Just keep them personal and state them as such. Don't try to teach them in a school to impressionable kids. School isn't the place for such a thing anyway.

What the hell do you think is happening now?

Someones belief system is going to be taught. That is the problem with public schools.

 

[Ivy Mike]

I think the religious right is making an attempt to place religion into places it doesn't need to be.

Yes, belief systems will be taught and the proper place for this is the home, or the church. That is why we don't teach religious dogma in schools. That is why we don't base our laws on religious teachings.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Government run education should be abolished. It isn't "public school"..if it were public, we'd be in charge of it, we are not.


It doesn't work. There has been a massive decline in the last 10 years that I'd wager most people do not really understand the severity of. Things are bad, the youth is highly disturbed.


Each family should be responsible for educating their children.


Now, I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon, but the system is rotting and collapsing - so you never know.

 

[longeyes]

If we're going to have public ed we need to change the concept: Universal access is good; one monolithic politico-philosophical indoctrination system is not. Yes, that means vouchers.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Voutchers are anti-collectivist. That will never happen. America is semi-communist right now. People demand that you pay for their brats to attend a brainwashing, babysitting, governemnt-run propaganda camp (public school). They vote to extort your money and wealth from you by appealing to the government, who will get their share of the booty after enforcing the law through the barrel of a gun.

Contrary to what the advocates of this system (the money-sucking bureaucrats) will tell you, we as a nation have not progressed in the area of education at all in 120+ years. People are not more literate. Instead, we have functional illiterates running around. A red-herring argument is that people "know more" today. That is only because knowledge has grown, not because education works or is better today.

Reading isn't the key. Understanding what you're reading is the key. Governement run education does not teach people to think or reason, it teaches them what to think and believe. The people who go through this system and are excellent critical thinkers have done so by their own merits, not because of the system "making" them smart. Bright people will succeed regardless of their environment. It is the average to below average people that are victimized. The government thrives on the concept of "the masses are as*es"...They need popular support for their ultra-tyrannical policies. "Support" as in sheep-like compliance, or non-aggression.

They'd have us all believe that everyone was an idiot 150 years ago. And thanks to the almightly and wise government, they've lifted us out of our stupor as a civilization.


Key example of how this works. Income tax is unconstitutional, aside from that, imagine if it were collected on April 15th, rather than deducted from your paycheck every week. The masses would be totally outraged at the amount they pay each year. They'd feel the pain. Instead, everyone is happy go lucky by having it taken incrementally. It is as if no one is taking it at all. Out of sight, out of mind. Dumb and happy.


Welcome to Amerika.

 

[Eleven Mike]

You mean promoting non-embryonic stem cells that actually have a successful track record, while objecting to the cells that must be gathered from murdered embryos? Irrational, I agree.

I encourage you to inform yourself of the facts without overreliance on what some politicritter would say in congress to rile up the base. There are only a few cell lines that are approved by our fearless leader, many of which are of dubious quality. More cell lines are necessary for a number of technical reasons. However, our hypocrites in power would deny that to our science, in essence giving away the technological lead to Europe, Korea, and Japan.

Actually, I'm getting my facts not from politicians but from an even more biased source - Pro-lifers. !!! And on talk radio no less. Horrors! As I understand it, President Bush has not approved or disapproved any cell lines; he has only approved funding for some of them. But like most people on both sides of the issue, you don't appreciate the implications of the anti-abortion position; which is based on the belief (we might even say the scientific fact) that fertilized eggs are human beings deserving of full protection. If you believed this research involved murder, would any of its benefits over-ride that?

Also, fertilized eggs are leftovers from fertility clinics for in-vitro pregnancies. Due to lack of space and funding, they are routinely dumped down the drain or in the garbage or in the biohazard incinerators. So, it is okay to destroy them, just not to use them to cure people?

I've never heard "the religious right" or any anti-abortion advocate say, "it is okay to destroy them." I've only heard them say the opposite. No human person should be "leftover."

Methinks 99% of the vicious opponents of HESCR would do a 180deg turn the minute they themselves or somebody they care about gets sick and would benefit from such. Kind of like Nancy Reagan...

Well, Nancy was always kinda loopy. I hope you don't intend this as a serious argument. For one thing, you can expect more than 1 percent of any movement to have the courage of their convictions. In any case such an "argument" proves nothing.

 

[Eleven Mike]

He just got slapped upside the head by a NVA jailer one too many times and Tedly Kennedy got to him and brain washed him before he got his senses back.

I don't like McCain, either, but that ain't The High Road.

 

[grampster]

One of the nice things about an adult board is adult conversation. I'd like to see some of the low road commentary edited by the poster. Write it down, vent, go re-read it, revel in the venom if you must, and then edit it before you post it.

Make some good sense and a good post that you would not be ashamed of if an anti was lurking. We're looking to convert with reason, not turn off with childish slurs.

 

[Eleven Mike]

grampster,

What do you think this is? APS?