This is the moron that Democrats want to lead us?

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"Bush sucks."

The official slogan of the Howard Dean campaign.

"Dean sucks"

The official slogan of the other 8 Democratic candidates.:D

I find it interesting that back in 1996 the right's hatred of Bill Clinton was at least as much as the leftists for George Bush. But where was their "Angry Man" Howard Dean? They nominated Kindly Uncle Bob Dole!

Its interesting, just like Dean said it was "interesting" that there's a theory that the Saudis warned Bush about 9/11 (he quickly added that that "of course he doesn't believe that". What a sniveling political trick to pull. :fire: )

I want absolutley no part of this guy as my President but more importantly Commander in Chief. I know theres a few Dean men here and good for them, but I'll bet that even those most disappointed by Bush will not be voting for Dean (me included).
 
Daedalus, you are dead on... :D

If I hadn't known about that site for awhile, I would swear that page was written for this particular circumstance. How funny.
 
Ok then ....CAUTION: Target is a favorite disguise of Troller amd Evil Clown.

And I'm still waiting for you to backup your posts from hours ago.
 
Well, I'm neither an evil clown nor a troll, so lets quit the personal attacks, eh?

Note, I've responded now, multiple times. I've backed myself up with sources, multiple times. What hoops do you have for me now?
 
You said you were Target.

Copied from flamewarrior site.

"Target is the guy everyone in a forum loves to hate. To some degree he brings this upon himself. For example, he may be a known cheater in a game forum, a conservative among liberals, a Windows guy among Mac enthusiasts, or even a man in a women's forum. Why Target places himself in such dicey situations is anyone's guess, but he seems genuinely oblivious to his precarious position. When Target inevitably runs afoul of a forum's prevailing attitudes the other Warriors unleash their collective fury upon him. His usual reaction is "Hey, what did I do?" or "Why do you all hate me?" Target usually gets the hint after a while and moves on. NOTE: Target often serves as a useful pressure valve for the forum's pent up hostilities. Therefore, if the current Target has been driven off or immobilized a new target will be quickly selected. CAUTION: Target is a favorite disguise of Troller amd Evil Clown."


See that part at the end. I was just supplying the parts you left out in your post.

You have not supplied one factually relevent document to back up your argument. You've only posted articles detailing problems BEFORE Bush was in office as evidence of his wrongdoing as a President. Now again who was in office during the time that your evidence was relevent.
 
Quit with the "personal attack" mantra, already. Disingenuously hitting up the mods for a thread closure doesn't remove your obligation to respond.

My question again: do you have any firearms related posts not dealing with Dean?
 
You have not posted one source to back up anything you've said AND you have decided to focus on me, the messenger, instead of going to hunt down some information.

do you have any firearms related posts not dealing with Dean?
A whole lot of them. Do a search.
 
Topic : Dean Lax on Nuclear Plant Security

Your Responses :
It is Bush' Fault >
Tax Cuts For the Rich = Underfunded Fed. Govt Programs > Bush spiked 9/11 probes > One of Bush'd lawyer defending Saudi's >
Anthony Zinni article >
Novak Leak Probe >
Deluge of other links to articles that criticize current administration >

I assembled this little chronology of this thread because you apparently missed it. Your initial claim that Bush is responsible for all Nuclear Power plant security breaches from ??? - May 9, 2001 was refuted by the simple fact that before January 2000 it was Clinton's responsibility and that these breaches are an ongoing problem.
The Force on Force security tests are often carried out by Navy Seals, Army Rangers, and other professional military commando units who are much more trained in infiltration than any security force could ever be trained to defend against with 100% success. I would say that a 53% success rate of defending against these infiltrations is not as terrible as you make it out to be.

I fail to see where you are being unjustly singled out for attack, and see only that you have posted a deluge of copy>paste articles that have only the most tenuous of links to the posted article.
I have countered your claim that Bush is entirely responsible for national power plant security lapses, and have explained why I feel your 47% failure rate in fore on force is not as terrible as you make it out to be. I am eagerly awaiting your explanation as to how the security breaches that Clinton did not repair in 8 years could possibly be fixed by Bush in 3.
Why don't you try and stop making yourself out to be some kind of Daniel in the Lion's Den and actually debate the issue of Nuclear Power Plant security and the responsibility of the State and Federal governments in its administration.
 
w4rma.

I haven't submitted anything so I don't need to defend anything, I've told you how your evidence isn't relevent. You have refused to supply relevent information. And again it's not my responsibility to support your argument for you. When you post relevent information I will attempt to refute it, but you haven't done that yet.

BTW Thanks for all the info to refute your argument. It was a little too easy when you used data from someone elses time in office to criticize the person who's in office now.
 
I have countered your claim that Bush is entirely responsible for national power plant security lapses, and have explained why I feel your 47% failure rate in fore on force is not as terrible as you make it out to be. I am eagerly awaiting your explanation as to how the security breaches that Clinton did not repair in 8 years could possibly be fixed by Bush in 3.
Bush was prodded by 9.11 and given a majority Republican Congress to fix it with. Clinton had to fight against a very partisan Republican Congress to fix anything with. Folks seem to forget that from 1994 on, the Republicans have controlled a majority in Congress.


FBI claims Bin Laden inquiry was frustrated
Officials told to 'back off' on Saudis before September 11
Greg Palast and David Pallister
The Guardian Wednesday November 7, 2001
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4293682,00.html

FBI and military intelligence officials in Washington say they were prevented for political reasons from carrying out full investigations into members of the Bin Laden family in the US before the terrorist attacks of September 11.

US intelligence agencies have come under criticism for their wholesale failure to predict the catastrophe at the World Trade Centre. But some are complaining that their hands were tied.
…
They said the restrictions became worse after the Bush administration took over this year. The intelligence agencies had been told to “back off†from investigations involving other members of the Bin Laden family, the Saudi royals, and possible Saudi links to the acquisition of nuclear weapons by Pakistan.

“There were particular investigations that were effectively killed.â€
Only after the September 11 attacks was the stance of political and commercial closeness reversed towards the other members of the large Bin Laden clan, who have classed Osama bin Laden as their “black sheepâ€.

Hart-Rudman
Not only did Clinton's actions prevent Y2K terrorist acts (eg, a bomber headed off on his way to the celebration in Seattle), but much more occurred in his administration to ward off terrorism ~ only to be scuttled by the Bushistas:

Commission warned Bush
But White House passed on recommendations by a bipartisan, Defense department-ordered commission on domestic terrorism.
by Jake Tapper

Sept. 12, 2001 | WASHINGTON -- They went to great pains not to sound as though they were telling the president “We told you so.â€

But on Wednesday, two former senators, the bipartisan co-chairs of a Defense Department-chartered commission on national security, spoke with something between frustration and regret about how White House officials failed to embrace any of the recommendations to prevent acts of domestic terrorism delivered earlier this year.

Bush administration officials told former Sens. Gary Hart, D-Colo., and Warren Rudman, R-N.H., that they preferred instead to put aside the recommendations issued in the January report by the U.S. Commission on National Security/21st Century. Instead, the White House announced in May that it would have Vice President Dick Cheney study the potential problem of domestic terrorism -- which the bipartisan group had already spent two and a half years studying -- while assigning responsibility for dealing with the issue to the Federal Emergency Management Agency, headed by former Bush campaign manager Joe Allbaugh.
…
Before the White House decided to go in its own direction, Congress seemed to be taking the commission's suggestions seriously, according to Hart and Rudman. “Frankly, the White House shut it down,†Hart says. “The president said 'Please wait, we're going to turn this over to the vice president. We believe FEMA is competent to coordinate this effort.' And so Congress moved on to other things, like tax cuts and the issue of the day.â€

“We predicted it,†Hart says of Tuesday's horrific events. “We said Americans will likely die on American soil, possibly in large numbers -- that's a quote (from the commission's Phase One Report) from the fall of 1999.â€
…
http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/09/12/bush/

The Gore Commission
also known as the White House Commission on Aviation Safety and Security.
http://www.airportnet.org/depts/regulatory/gorecom.htm

Here is what seems to have happened to the recomendations of the Gore Commission:
We begin our news with a quote: “The federal government should consider aviation security as a national security issue, and provide substantial funding for capital improvements. The Commission believes that terrorist attacks on civil aviation are directed at the United States, and that there should be an ongoing federal commitment to reducing the threats that they pose.â€

If you think that comes from a recent Bush White House report, guess again. In the summer of 1996, shortly after the crash of TWA flight 800, President Clinton asked Vice President Al Gore to chair a commission on improving air transportation safety. As a result, the White House Commission on Aviation Safety and Security, commonly known as the Gore Commission, conducted an in-depth analysis of the U.S. commercial airlines' safeguards against terrorist attacks. In its final report, which is what I quoted from a moment ago, the Gore Commission found that security measures used by U.S. airlines were extremely inadequate, and made over 50 recommendations to improve security.

What happened? Well, the Gore Commission demanded tougher airline security, but airlines and conservatives said no. Specifically, the airline industry dismissed the threat of terrorists, and attacked the commission. Indeed, the day after the final report was published, the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association fought back with a legislative action of their own that claimed the Gore Commission existed simply to thwart the will of the Republican Congress.

And conservative ideologues rejected the proposal on “cost-effectiveness†grounds. OK, so how much are 6,000 lives worth - not to mention the dollar value placed on the World Trade Center, a portion of the Pentagon, an economic recession, and America's security?
http://www.d28dems.org/pspeak/psE85.htm

For instance, the commission, headed by then-Vice President Al Gore, wanted airlines to screen all passengers with computerized profiling systems to detect potential terrorists.
http://www.detnews.com/2001/nation/0110/06/nation-312052.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.co...cgi?az=show_thread&om=25100&forum=DCForumID35
 
Bush was prodded by 9.11 and given a majority Republican Congress to fix it with. Clinton had to fight against a Republican Congress to fix anything with. Folks seem to forget that from 1994 on, the Republicans have controlled a majority in Congress.

Oh, now I understand: Bush did a better job, but only because of external reasons...got it. How about your boy Dean? Would a hostile Congress be your excuse for his failures, too?

Besides, are you seriously trying to talk nuclear security with references to Clinton? Clinton gave away the farm, in case you slept through his administration:

Loss of nuclear secrets called 'one of worst failures' in U.S. history
http://www.cnn.com/US/9905/25/cox.report.04/

Clinton to continue engagement with China despite espionage report
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/05/25/white.house.reax/index.html

Clinton Gave China Chips for Nuclear War
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/9/29/25139.shtml

Give me a break!
 
w4rma.

Your just changing topics again. You still haven't provided any evidence of your original suppositions.
 
Since you are really trying to duct tape what you see as an intentional bungling of 9/11 (something that I personally feel is a pretty dirty thing to say about anyone) to this thread, which is about Howard Dean and Vermont's nuclear power plants I guess I will have to ask you one question.

How would you, the american people, and the economy have responded if President Bush came on television the day after he was inaugurated and said "I have information that some time in the future terrorists may potentially hijack an airliner. In response to this threat I propose forming a whole new branch of the federal governmentthat is responsible solely for far stricter security at airports. In response to this threat I will spend X Billion tax dollars to protect against an unconfirmed threat that will arise sometime, we do not know exactly when." The suggestion that because President Bush did not immediately spend BILLIONS to turn air travel into the hours long security checks that it currently is because of a unconfirmed threat is ridiculous.
There are terrorist threats floating in the ether every second of every day. If every threat was treated as a Fred Sanford-esque BIG ONE we would shut down as a society. If terrorists knew that they could shut down an airline, a school, whathave you just by making threats we would be unable to function.
Every time the terror alert is raised, Deanites and other liberals mock the warnings "Oh its the Bu$h administration trying to scare us." Maybe you should think about that before immediately blaming Bush for 9/11 instead of the terrorists. Noone knew that 9/11 was going to happen. Noone let it happen. The cloak and dagger horse squeeze that you accuse the Bush administration of is the ridiculous fantasy of an angry liberal.
I encourage you to let me know of any government programs that Bush decreased funding to since he has been in office. Name one single program, especially a security one, where it went from X dollars to <X dollars.
Blaming Clintons inaction on a Republican controlled congress is a nonstarter. Clinton never proposed any kind of security increase that would have been sufficient to stop 9/11. From your own admission the "gore commision" took place during Clinton's administration. If the threat was so obvious why did he not do anything about it?
 
Time for w4rma to hide behind a smoke screen of new article snippiets that are only tangentally (if at all) pertinent to the topic. :rolleyes:
 
He had plenty of time to think while recuperating. He promised himself that "if I'm ever in a position to say what I think is right, I will. ... I don't care what happens to my career."
What career? He's retired! So we have one guy who is still p---ed off that he took three rounds in a war and can't get over it. So what?
the retired Marine Corps general
Now that's really stepping up to the plate. Wait until you are retired to start "speaking up" after your career -- which you swore to put on the line -- is over and the pension checks are rolling in.

What a joke.:rolleyes:
 
I have *never* said that the bungling of 9.11 was intentional. My understanding is that it happened beause of gross, top-down, incompetence partially due to an extreme adherence to the neo-con ideological doctrine. Please do not put words into my mouth to create a straw man you can hit.
 
First you say:
Maybe Bush should have funded the security at the plant, instead of redirecting resources towards federal tax cuts for the super wealthy and allowing 9.11 to happen?
but then post an article that states very clearly
the Bush Administration and Energy Department had increased security funding by more than 50 per cent "to ensure that our nuclear weapons materials are not vulnerable to terrorist attack".
Why should we refute your contentions when you are doing an absolutely marvelous job on your own?

There is an old saying that when your opponent is making a fool of himself, shut up and let him. You are doing a fine job.

When it turns out that Zinni is full of steaming excrement will you come here and post that also; or simply ignore it?

We anxiously await your next cut-n-paste article that has nothing to do with your original contention. What will it be; Presidential tee ball? Barneycam? Laura's new hairdo? Oh, the excitement mounts!
 
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jimpeel, just out of curiousity, what would have to happen for you to ever admit that the Republican leadership failed at something? Can you think of anything?
 
So w4rma, that's what your argument comes down to. You present a silly argument with no evidence. And then want someone else to provide you with some hypothetical failure on this administrations part that will be acceptable.

Silly silly silly. First off Bush has done a lot of wrong things, Increased government spending, Patriot Act I and II, etc. however your prescious Democrats also voted for these things.

Is Bush the greatest ever - no of course not, but he is a hell of a lot better for this country than Dean would be.
 
And who wouldn't vote for Dean when he has this sort of supporters?

"This round, Dean, the favorite of Rob Reiner and Martin Sheen, also attracted the support of celebs including Alec Baldwin, Mel Brooks, Ted Danson, Janeane Garofalo, Christopher Guest, Norman Lear, Paul Newman, Carl Reiner, Aaron Sorkin, Barbra Streisand and Bradley Whitford. Some biz types, such as HBO topper Chris Albrecht, also cut checks to Dean."

http://www.bootlegbetty.com/2003_07.html

My gosh, maybe Dean can use these people to help him shape major domestic and foreign policy!

:mad:
 
Not only did Clinton's actions prevent Y2K terrorist acts (eg, a bomber headed off on his way to the celebration in Seattle), but much more occurred in his administration to ward off terrorism ~ only to be scuttled by the Bushistas:
From: http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,459230,00.html
A suspicious US border guard stopped Mr Ressam when he tried to enter the United States at Port Angeles, Washington, from Victoria, British Columbia on December 14 1999. In his trunk were enough explosives and components to make three powerful time bombs.
How is it that Clinton can be credited for a U.S. Border Patrol agent simply doing her job?
 
w4rma

what would have to happen for you to ever admit that the Republican leadership failed at something? Can you think of anything?
Siiiigggghhhhh.

What MikeB said. Add Barneycam two years in a row.

In an attempt to flesh out a firearms post from you; do you think that Bush will re-up the AWB or let it die? What would Clinton have done? What would Dean do if he were President now?
 
My final .02 on this one:

Though disappointed in the Bush presidency so far, there is no way anyone is going to convince me that Howard Dean is preferable. I could see articles and op-eds from here to Sunday about how bad Bush is and how great Howard Dean is and it won't change a thing.

I believe what my own eyes see:

Howard Dean is a patented product-of-the-sixties-leftist (tm) and Bush (with many flaws) isn't.

(I am more of a ranter than debater, sorry!)
 
w4rma, i'm adding the link in your sig line to mine. We'll see how many more gun owners of dean on this board will catch on.
 
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