this seems strange, even by California standards

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all the ACLU has to do to get my respect is start supporting 2A. until then
If anything the ACLU is narrowing their support of the Bill of Rights. Remember all the support ACLU gave the homeowners in Kelo v. New London? Me neither. In fact according to ACLU spokespeople, they still haven't "developed a policy" on it. I'm an ACLU member so I get their email newsletter, here's an excerpt from it:
"The Court's civil liberties record this year was a surprisingly positive one,"
said Steven R. Shapiro, the ACLU's national legal director. "In contrast to
past years, the Justices seemed less anxious to undermine meaningful civil
rights enforcement, more skeptical about the death penalty, and more willing to
look at international law for whatever guidance it can provide in resolving
fundamental human rights issues."
Yes, you heard it here first, the SCOTUS term that gave us Kelo and Raich was surprisingly positive...because the justices ignored the Constitution in favor of "international law".
 
So what is the real goal of the ACLU if not supporting the rights of the individual? I cant think of any more fundamental indivudual right than the ownership of property. Second place is probably the right to self defense. Why doesnt the ACLU support either of these rights?
 
The ACLU does not care about the BoR per se. My impression is that the way they see it is there are certain goals such as affirmative action, hate crime laws, free speech, death penalty etc, and they have decided that supporting the left wing of the court (i.e. Stevens, Souter, Breyer, Ginsberg) is the best way to further those goals. The problem is that left wing ideology incorporates a very broad view of collective rights and a very narrow view of individual rights (although they deny this of course). So if the ACLU supports the leftists to get affirmative action, they end up opposing many individual rights. In addition, many (but by no means all) ACLU decision makers are themselves leftist and try to undermine ACLU support for individual rights.
 
I live in a Sacramento neighborhood with VERY visible gang activity. I don't particularly care for it. Blue jeans? You are kidding right? It's not simple blue jeans by a long shot. When I get home from work everyday, there is usually a congregation of 5-10 young urban males standing by the curb about 5 houses down. They all have the typical baggy clothing and jerseys (fine with that) but each and every one has a distinguishable baby blue bandanna, slightly exposed baby blue tee-shirt extending below the jersey, or a baby blue ballcap. That's not a coincidence there fellas. The weird thing is some days the congregation of young urban males is replaced by another group that all have the distinguishing tags but in scarlet red. Neither group is up to any good. When I drive by them, I always find something very interesting to look at in the other direction from them. If I don't notice them, they don't notice me.

I'd actually prefer if the statist JBT's relocated these particular citizens away from my neighborhood. Would all of you want these guys standing around till late in the night in front of your house? How about walking your dogs at night past these folks? On 4th of July they walked by when I was lighting my fireworks and they walked through them and kicked them over. Real upstanding citizens there. Oh wait, I'll just get a CCW and everything will be hunky dory. Yea right. I am damn thankful that there are cops that take this crap seriously.
 
I'm surprised more people didn't know about this. It aslo happens in Long Beach California too againts the Crips and a local Hispanic gang too I think. There was an article about this in the paper last year. It seems the injuctions can get a bit silly, some seem to be applied on very flimsy evidence or on gang members who have left the life and haevn't participated in the gang in many years.

The injunction can get very specific, I think they even can have provisions on cell phones and police scanners! Your papers please!
 
So they serve one alleged gang member, get the injunction, and then randomly notify people that they are subject to the injunction without further notice or hearing? There's no way this is constitutional under the Due Process Clause. I hope the Section 1983 lawsuits start flying fast.
 
Terrorism
ter·ror·ism
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

If you envoke terror in others, you are a terrorist. You will be punished to the full extend of the law!

If you're saying the above definition means what you paraphased, a more correct definition would be: If you evoke terror by the use of threatening force and or violence with the intention of intimidation and or coercion................



Are we missing something in the article? Did something get lost? I don't see where that's even close to legal or where a court would allow the sanction without some kind of proof or even, reasonable conclusion at least?
 
Lincoln Village.

I appreciate that most of you (us) here at THR keep their eye on the civil liberties issues. We do not want to piss those rights away. I just have this problem in my face, right now. I would like that the cops would have better tools to irradicate gang activity and leave the streets safer for productive citizens. Relying on my 1911 is not the preferred alternative.

How would you have the cops fight gang activity? Would you give them any effective tools to use? We can't go on with two hands tied behind our backs and let the losers and dirtbags defecate on our society.

Help me out here. With the brainpower here, we have got to develop effective tools to combat this newer permutation of criminal activity. Its not going to get better on its own. Thanks.
 
Why whine...

when it sounds to me like you got all the "tools" you need right here pard. Gosh, the LEOs really have their "two hands tied" on this one (italics mine):

(i) In order to secure a conviction, or sustain a juvenile
petition, pursuant to subdivision (a), it is not necessary for the
prosecution to prove that the person devotes all, or a substantial
part of his or her time or efforts to the criminal street gang, nor
is it necessary to prove that the person is a member of the criminal
street gang
. Active participation in the criminal street gang is all
that is required.

Couldn't "active participation" be a guy hanging with a friend (formerly "free association") who might be a member? You don't have to prove anything anyway do you? Get a narc to do it, or shorten somebody's sentence or plea so they lie in your favor (I know it's gauche and passe, but it's done all the time). Now, all your LEO problems are solved. Take video of 2 guys just shaking hands (if you still need proof or CYA which I doubt), and serve 'em with papers, then put 'em away for an extra 5/10/15 years when they do anything outside their homes remotely suspect since they are "legally gang bangers".

I mean really, what's so hard about that? Is the "hands tied"stuff just PR fodder because you need more .50's/APCs/tanks and the budget's too tight (damn tightwad peasants)?

Sheesh...
 
Here is novel idea to get rid of gang bangers. Catch them doing something actually illegal. Until then, leave them alone. I know nobody wants them hanging around but don't support the diminishing of others rights unless you accept a diminishing of your own. That is something I cannot accept personally.
 
Shalako,

Gang activity will run rampant until the populace gets good and tired of it and takes an active hand in erradicating it. A very active neighborhood watch program can be very effective in driving gangs out of a neighborhood. Gangs don't like it when every time they turn around they see someone watching them and taping their activities day and night, calling the cops whenever they break the law and showing a determination to testify in court.

BUT...people don't want to make the effort. They expect the cops to make the problem go away. As long as there is public apathy the problems will not be resolved.

My second guess would have been Rancho.
 
Thanks guys, especially Car Knocker for your constructive advice. The voice of reason and all...

I just imagine that most of you do not share my dilema, so cannot truly understand where I am at on this one. Do you have a huddle of gangbangers on your route to the local market? Oops, I'm whining again. :neener: Maybe it will get better through the efforts of brave citizenry willing to risk retalliation and slashed tires. At least they stopped running prostitutes from the driveway across the street.

I should just cough up the $450k to move to a better neighborhood huh? I'll get right on that.
 
We had a couple a drug houses, and all that entails, in my neighborhood a few years ago. The neighbors got together and made life so miserable for the druggies, and the owners of the property, that we finally drove them from the neighborhood. We didn't do anything illegal (in fact, we had the cooperation of the police) but we took lots of photos in a very obvious manner, called the police when something was amiss, got the health department and code enforcement folks involved, animal control, etc.

What made it work was the involvement and commitment of just about all the people in the area. Without that, the druggies would still be here and thriving!

Seems to me that the same tactics would work with gangs.
 
I just imagine that most of you do not share my dilema, so cannot truly understand where I am at on this one. Do you have a huddle of gangbangers on your route to the local market? Oops, I'm whining again. Maybe it will get better through the efforts of brave citizenry willing to risk retalliation and slashed tires. At least they stopped running prostitutes from the driveway across the street.

I should just cough up the $450k to move to a better neighborhood huh? I'll get right on that.
Shalako, I empathize with your dilemma. I understand what you want, and why you want it. I lived enough of my life in downtown Milwaukee to extrapolate what it must be like to live in a truly gang-ruled area, and I'm sorry. I've had my car and residence broken into, robbed, and vandalized enough to understand the frustration, helplessness, and fear that come as a result of living in such an area. A couple years back, a car (not mine) was fire-bombed two houses down the street from me.

But there's no getting around one of life's simple truths: bad things happen to good people. You don't want to be one of those good people, and neither do I, but it's neither your place nor mine to demand that other people pay the price for our fears, no matter how justified they may be. No one, and particularly not the government, can make the problem "go away" for you. No one is going to come in from outside and make it all better. Your safety in your person and your possessions is your responsibility.

The real crime is that CA, in particular, goes to such effort to deny you the effective means of meeting that responsibility - but that doesn't mean the correct solution is to deny even more people more of their fundamental rights.

The correct solution is what jefmad and Car Knocker, respectively, have said. Get the criminals put away (and I don't mean plea bargain down to probation, and I don't mean trade evidence for a get out of jail card, I mean doing time commensurate with the offense), and get the people they terrorize to start taking responsibility for their own safety. Slapping curfews on suspected gang members (as defined by someone at some level of some bureaucracy) isn't just an unethical solution, it's an ineffective one. We all know that criminals don't obey gun laws, why do you suppose criminals will obey curfews? They're not afraid to deal crack on a street corner, they're not afraid to shoot up somebody's house in broad daylight, they're not afraid to buy stolen guns, they're not afraid to shoot cops, but they'll be afraid to go out after 10? That's the law they plan on following?

Or is it just so that the police have an excuse to pick someone up if they "know" he's going to do something bad? If there's enough police presence to effectively prevent breaking curfew, how is there not enough police presence to effectively deter real crime? How will the police know if a given person walking down the street is one of the people that's got a curfew? They'd better stop anyone who's blac...I mean, hispan...I mean, SUSPICIOUS, just in case. Or better yet, maybe they can make all the people slapped with a curfew wear a GPS device/transmitter, so they'll know when they walk out their front door.

While we're at it, we might as will rescind their right to vote and their RKBA. Then they can have all the cool perks of a felony conviction, just without the tattoos. And it'll save money, too, when we don't have to fund that "due process" thing anymore.
 
Well, given the email address of the author ([email protected]), I suspect that it was published by Reason magazine, certainly online, possibly also in their paper copy. Quick search online gives me this: http://www.reason.com/links/links080205.shtml. USA Today makes a passing reference to similar policies in California here: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-09-cover-gangs_x.htm. A couple other links found via googling (I don't necessarily vouch for the authority of the publications, however) are here: http://dailydemocrat.com/news/ci_2907922 and here: http://www.davisenterprise.com/articles/2005/07/29/news/155new2.txt and here: http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/story/13329915p-14171918c.html.
 
Would all of you want these guys standing around till late in the night in front of your house? How about walking your dogs at night past these folks?
Nothing wrong with standing around. Something about "prior restraint" there....

On 4th of July they walked by when I was lighting my fireworks and they walked through them and kicked them over.
A criminal act (though a relatively minor one compared to other things these people are usually involved in) which has absolutely nothing to do with wearing the same colors and looking mean.

Why can't we deal more harshly with actual behavior and quit worrying so damn much about precursors?

Here is novel idea to get rid of gang bangers. Catch them doing something actually illegal. Until then, leave them alone. I know nobody wants them hanging around but don't support the diminishing of others rights unless you accept a diminishing of your own. That is something I cannot accept personally.
What he said.
 
So you are cool with gangs then.

That's not for me.
Oh, please.

You're trying to equate "gang" with "crime," and therefore, by extension, assign to everyone who disagrees with you a pro-crime stance. That's ridiculous. Provide some real definition of "gang," and then we'll talk.


Note: if you define "gang" as a group that commits crimes, then of course no one's in favor of them; they should be put away. Just like anyone else who commits crimes.

If you define "gang" as a group that might commit crimes, then yeah, I'm all for gangs. I'm in a bunch. I go to the range with a "gang" of friends. We all dress kind of the same and use a sort of slang, too. Better give me a curfew.
 
another okie wrote:

Art. I, Sec. 9, "No bill of attainder shall be passed..." Sounds pretty close to a bill of attainder to me.

---------------

I believe that the constitution does contain such an admonition. It also contained words to the effect that "congress shall pass no ex-post facto law" Despite that, we have what was originally known as The Lautenberg Amendment, which certainly does appear to be one, an ex-post facto law that is..
 
I cannot equate Cripps and Bloods in my neighborghood with anything BUT crime.

When I say gang, I mean the real deal, not a gang of girlscouts, amway dealers, or the rotary club. I would not waste your time with such idiocy as that.

Don't you equate Cripps and Bloods with crime? Cripps and Bloods kill people, run extortion rings and prostitutes, and sell drugs. Anyone who freely identifies and associates with Cripps and bloods should be rounded up. I especially don't want them in front of my house.

I'm sorry you mistook me for some sort of drivelling moron that complains about some normal guys shuckin and jivin over by the curb. Heck I'd probably join them or offer them a soda. I do not know how I can say the word gang and you visualize innocent bystander. We must be using two different definitions of the word gang.

Once again, I apologize for the misunderstanding.
 
How would you have the cops fight gang activity? Would you give them any effective tools to use? We can't go on with two hands tied behind our backs and let the losers and dirtbags defecate on our society.

Help me out here.

Talk about a fat juicy softball.

How would you have the cops fight gang activity?
More patrols.
More investigation of crimes.
More arrests.
More prosecutions.
Yet more patrols
Yet more investigation of crimes
Yet more arrests.
Yet more prosecutions.
YOU calling them and reporting them kicking your fireworks (malicious mischief and/or disorderly conduct, a crime), and having the police ARREST them and CHARGE them and prosecute them. That's the tool that should be used. Vote people into positions of power (sheriff, district attorney, etc.), who are going to make the cops WORK and solve crimes and respond to good citizens' requests to press charges, like you, and prosecute crimes and criminals to the full extent of the law. But unless and until they commit a crime, leave them the heck alone! This is America jack. You can hang out on the street corner all you damn well please. If you don't like it, please go change the bill of rights to repeal the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments BEFORE you support such unconstituional measures. No different than supporting gun bans.

Would you give them any effective tools to use?

Of course - they tools they've already got - the money and a budget to get off their asses and patrol and investigate and solve crimes. Perhaps vote for bond issues for MORE tax money for same. Would I give them ALL the tools they ask for? Most certainly NOT. Police ALWAYS want "more effective tools" - they would have absolute plenary power to arrest and detain at their whim anyone they didn't like or anyone who looked a little strange (do you?) if it was up to them - if we gave them the 'tools' that they WANT and constantly gripe about not having. Their 'tools' are OUR lost freedoms. We most certainly can NOT give them all the 'tools' they would like, or the Const. and American way of life immediately goes down the urinal. That's the whole point. In a free society, we MUST necessarily give up certain levels of safety. But if we spend time and money investigating and prosecuting CRIMES (not wearing blue, not hanging out on the sidewalk), then CRIME will decrease.

We can't go on with two hands tied behind our backs and let the losers and dirtbags defecate on our society.

No we cannot; you got that straight. But we cannot arrest, harass and restrain INNOCENTS in the dragnet - we must root out and prosecute and punish the GUILTY only. Curfews and such injunctions are just the local government's cheap and lazy way out to solve thier FAILURE to do what we elected them to do and pay them to do. PATROL/DETER, INVESTIGATATE, SOLVE, ARREST, CHARGE, and PROSECUTE crime (not freely associating with whomover one likes - that's the 1st Am jack).

Help me out here.

I just did. :)

ACLU is lower than whale crap - what a joke - selective libertarians. The Raich and Kelo term is a positive one, eh?. That almost makes me want to puke. We need a REAL protector of civil rights group in this country!
 
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