thoughts on .30 luger?

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justin22885

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most people here probably dont have an old luger pistol or one of the rarer hi powers chambered for this, but ive been taking an interest in this cartridge for a few reasons.. it uses common and cheap 9mm brass, same COAL and will fit any 9mm pistol with a barrel swap (or just a re-sleeve) and if loaded on 9mm brass to 9mm +P pressures it will match velocity with the same bullets as 7.62x25

there are many fans of 7.62x25 and a lot of people wishing there was a modern double stack option (it being unfortunately too long for 45acp/38 super actions).. so if you could match that performance by converting ANY 9mm pistol to .30 luger and load it to these higher pressures to get identical ballistics from a modern doublestack, why hasnt anyone done this?
 
I am just guessing it is because the .357 Sig is close, but better?

Obviously some folks like the overall idea: .22 TCM and 5.7 come to mind.

I would love a 7.62x25 pistol, myself. A CZ 75 would be the bees knees!
 
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Mmmmm?

Because a .30 cal pistol bullet was proven to be ineffective 100 years ago when the .30 Luger was superseded by the 9mm, almost world wide, except is the USA that stayed with .45 caliber.

And again by the Russians in the 1950's when they finally switched from 7.62x25 to 9mm MAK??

Little holes don't leak blood as fast as bigger holes.

rc
 
I love my .30 Lugers ! I got rid of the 9mm Lugers for big bucks and kept the 1920 4" Barrel and swiss 6" Barrel 7.65 ones. They are the sweetest shooting and hyper accurate out of a Luger and also the Sig 210 7.65 and BHP 7.65 have accuracy reputations. I shoot Fiocchi soft point ammo out of them and with care the 6" Swiss will group them into 2" at 25 yards like clock work as there is not much recoil or blast. The93 grain bullet chrono about 1290 fps out of the 6 inch Luger and about 1220 fps out of the 4" Luger and shoot VERY flat to 200 yards . I reload cast at about the same velocity and they shoot to the sights well. A very fun gun ! I have hit ground squirrels at 60 yards with one (rested ) and it allways raises eyebrows.
.
 
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I've met a couple guys that swear by .30 Lugers for small game hunting and it does work for that. Historically it ain't a manstopper. Ammo can be a pain unless you handload.

A buddy had a Luger he inherited laying around and decided to fire it. 9mm wouldn't chamber and he asked me for help. He wasn't happy when explained the problems with getting a reliable supply of 30 just for a few rounds a year.
 
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Mmmmm?

Because a .30 cal pistol bullet was proven to be ineffective 100 years ago when the .30 Luger was superseded by the 9mm, almost world wide, except is the USA that stayed with .45 caliber.

And again by the Russians in the 1950's when they finally switched from 7.62x25 to 9mm MAK??

Little holes don't leak blood as fast as bigger holes.

rc
because being straight blowback, makarovs were stupid cheap to make and the russians were really cheap too, the rest of the warsaw pact countries followed suit because of treaties, the czechs were very much against adopting it.. and as for germans and the original .30 luger, im pretty sure theres werent pushed up to match 7.62x25 ballistics which is more than safe on modern handguns
 
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There are no .30 Luger barrels except for a few weird collector's items and museum pieces. Sleeving barrels sounds horrifically expensive.

.30 Luger is otherwise dreadful to come by. Since you will have to reload, why .30 Luger instead of something more available?

Are you sure it can it be safely loaded to .30 Tokarev levels, or are you thinking of .30 Mauser?

Why not .357 Sig? It's already available in most modern pistols, and police trades can be crazy cheap.
 
If you can find one...Ruger made the P89 with an X designation and it came with two barrels and to guide rods (meant for export to countries that did not allow military calibers. Ammunition to go seems to always have Fiocchi at a reasonable price.

I have never tried my 30 luger barrel, but have been meaning to...

Jim
 
If you can find one...Ruger made the P89 with an X designation and it came with two barrels and to guide rods (meant for export to countries that did not allow military calibers. Ammunition to go seems to always have Fiocchi at a reasonable price.

I have never tried my 30 luger barrel, but have been meaning to...

Jim
well, if it can handle +P 9mm, it can handle +P 30 luger as well, would be interesting to see.. i was considering sleeving an old CZ75 or hi power for the conversion, or perhaps a sub gun like a sterling or KP31
 
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There are no .30 Luger barrels except for a few weird collector's items and museum pieces. Sleeving barrels sounds horrifically expensive.

.30 Luger is otherwise dreadful to come by. Since you will have to reload, why .30 Luger instead of something more available?

Are you sure it can it be safely loaded to .30 Tokarev levels, or are you thinking of .30 Mauser?

Why not .357 Sig? It's already available in most modern pistols, and police trades can be crazy cheap.
track of the wolf sells liners for about $6 an inch, its not all that expensive nor difficult to install one and rechamber it which is basically all thats needed to put 30 luger into any existing 9mm out there.. and 357 sig is just a glorified 38 super with lesser capacity and more expensive reloads, i wouldnt waste my time with anything based on a 40 cal
 
Until there is ammunition available that doesn't just fly through the target, with significant continued lethality, and leaving only a neat .30 caliber puncture in the intended target, the .30 Luger will be a questionable choice for a defensive pistol.

Now, for a sub-machine-gun in a war theater, it could be useful.
 
Kozak6 , in WW-2, according to Small Arms of the World, the 30 Mauser was loaded by the Germans to 1575 FPS. The Soviets loaded the 7.62X25 to 1378 FPS. One grain difference in bullet weight. The tokarev round is not hotter than the Mauser. 70 years ago just the opposite was true. Today is another story, with advances in powder the Tok round is loaded to a higher velocity, but not a higher pressure. 7.63 Mauser rounds have always been loaded down to about 1410 by American ammo companies, for no sensible reason that I can ascertain. Lyman's reloading manual #49 lumps them together.

As for loading the 30 Luger up to 7.62X25 velocities, I suspect the pressure levels would go through the roof, if it could be done at all. Set the two rounds side by side and it is obvious which one has more powder capacity.

OP, I hate to pee in your pool, but you cannot form 30 Luger from 9mm cases. The 30 Luger case is longer by about 2mm. Forming a 9mm case in a 30. Luger die will get you a case with almost no neck. Set the two next to each other and you will see what I mean.
 
Back when some Euro countries had stronger rules against 9mm ownership, a number of modern-ish 9mm pistols were offered in 7.62 Para. The above-mentioned Ruger P89, and Browning HPs sometimes pop up on Gunbroker in .30 Luger. Beretta iirc offered a couple pistols in that chambering, and then various higher-end Euro pistols, both target guns and simple tactical-style pistols.

Colt made a limited run of Commanders in .30 Luger, and on one of the other gun forums there are a few .30 Luger aficionados who have had custom 1911 barrels made in that chambering, and I think at least one that sleeved the barrel of a BHP. I've seen people ponder getting a custom Glock barrel made in .30 Luger, but haven't seen confirmation anyone has done so.

It doesn't seem unduly hard or expensive, just that you have to be a bit eccentric and have at least a few hundred of spare cash you don't mind never getting back to try out the idea. I'm tempted to try it someday myself.
 
A few folks who wanted a "+P+" 9mm pistol found that the .40 caliber Browning High Power made a good platform - heavier slide with an extra locking lug made it pretty durable with hot loaded 9mm. So it seems that if you want a "+P+" .30 Luger pistol, you should get yourself a .40 BHP and convert it to .30 Luger.
 
Kozak6 , in WW-2, according to Small Arms of the World, the 30 Mauser was loaded by the Germans to 1575 FPS. The Soviets loaded the 7.62X25 to 1378 FPS. One grain difference in bullet weight. The tokarev round is not hotter than the Mauser. 70 years ago just the opposite was true. Today is another story, with advances in powder the Tok round is loaded to a higher velocity, but not a higher pressure. 7.63 Mauser rounds have always been loaded down to about 1410 by American ammo companies, for no sensible reason that I can ascertain. Lyman's reloading manual #49 lumps them together.

As for loading the 30 Luger up to 7.62X25 velocities, I suspect the pressure levels would go through the roof, if it could be done at all. Set the two rounds side by side and it is obvious which one has more powder capacity.

OP, I hate to pee in your pool, but you cannot form 30 Luger from 9mm cases. The 30 Luger case is longer by about 2mm. Forming a 9mm case in a 30. Luger die will get you a case with almost no neck. Set the two next to each other and you will see what I mean.
you would only need to match pressures with 9mm +P at 38500 to match the tokarev round which means a pistol that can already handle +p 9mm will be fine as the bolt thrust is the same.. its no "hotter" than modern 9mm ammo
 
I thought we'd already done this...

You may (or may not, depending on how you've run Quickload) be accounting for the reduced volume in a necked case. Same powder mass for a given load (for 'ideally' the same same power transfer to the bullet --maybe a tiny bit more efficient with necked rounds) with a smaller volume will result in higher pressures. 7.62x25 has, I believe, a higher powder load than 9mm already. So you'd be talking an already above-normal powder mass, crammed into a smaller case volume than even 9mm.

Pressures will have to rise above 9mm +P in all likelihood (+P isn't all that "+" in the first place, being like 10% IIRC). Now, this isn't necessarily a deal-breaker since 9mm isn't the hottest thing to ever grace a recoil-operated pistol, although it will be murder on you lovingly crafted brass. But there is one load factor you haven't accounted for in assuming that even a 9mm-pressure Luger round will stress an action the same way; the case neck.

The 9mm is effectively a straight wall cartridge, so the powder gasses thrust against the breachface, and against the bullet which drags on the rifling; no significant axial load applied to the locking surfaces apart that due to the acceleration of the slide under bolt thrust (i.e. the breech trying to blow open). Put a significant neck in the chamber, and now your elevated pressures have another surface to bear down on in the axial direction. Both the bolt thrust as well as barrel thrust will contribute to locking lug loading. Again, it's not like 357SIG hasn't been shown to work just dandy in a lot of guns, but it is a design factor you need to account for & show green on.

Because you are chasing three things simultaneously that all push the design closer to failure; increased powder volume*, decreased case volume, and a necked chamber.

TCB

*I keep referring to powder volume since 9mm is so efficient that I doubt you will get a 30gr pill to Tokarev velocities without more chemical energy to work with. The efficiency gain in necking 9mm won't be detectable, so to bridge the power gap between 9mm and x25 more powder will be needed. Simply increasing the peak pressure won't help a ton outside of a super-short barrel case, since no Luger or Parabellum case will be significantly overbore with a normal powder charge; the pressure curve will simply spike more harshly without much more more area beneath it (the energy transferred). If you've run a souped-up Luger in Quickload or something similar to arrive at your conclusions, I'd love to be proven wrong; but since I don't have QL I have to SWAG it with a hazy memory of chemistry & thermodynamics.
 
you would only need to match pressures with 9mm +P at 38500 to match the tokarev round
Does 9mm +P loaded to +P levels actually surpass Tokarev from pistol length barrels? I admit it's got to be fairly hard to compare them apples/apples, but I thought the Wolf hollowpoints still penetrated quite a bit further than common 9mm peers despite impressive expansion (still a bit smaller, though) which would on its face seem to suggest more working power (energy/momentum just don't seem to quite account for everything in practice when you vary caliber significantly)

TCB
 
You can't make .30 Luger brass from 9mm; the .30 Luger is called the 7.65x21 for a reason, and the case length is actually 21.5mm. 9mm (9x19) brass necked down has too short a neck to hold the bullet properly.

Edited to add: I found a statement that the Swiss, one of the major users of the 7.65x21 in military pistols (Luger and SIG) loaded the round to a standard pressure of 2870 atm, which converts to 42,000 psi!! The proof loads were 3600 atm (52k psi)! I wonder if that is right, and if anyone else has seen it.

Jim
 
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...as if there wasn't enough reason not to bother reloading that Berdan-primed brass :D

42ksi...Whew! I think that's up there with the defective Bulgarian Tokarev (or whatever that stuff was) and the Carl Gustav AP 9mm. Still, though, with that tiny Luger case volume, that peak pressure dissipates rapidly; it'd be cool if it's competitive with Tokarev, though, since lord knows the cartridge length is a lot more practical.

TCB
 
Because 9mm converting down to anything is a waste. People buy 9mm anything and all they want to shoot is 9mm in it or, if there's an appropriate conversion, .22 LR because... cheap. Most people just want to not spend a ton of money and 9mm and, at one time, .22 was the cheapest way to go.

The other market is wanting guns with history and a TT-33 has more history than any 9mm converted to .30 Luger. I'm still waiting on the 7.62x25 double stack or single stack LCP/LC9 size 7.62x25 for concealed carry.

So, overall my thoughts on a resurgence of .30 Luger are it's a novel idea, but not practical. It won't appeal to the masses.
 
Other than pure novelty/cool factor (and I would certainly love a .30 Luger 1911 for panache), I'd imagine that the one thing that could give the Para new life would be if it just happened to fill a niche for a particular shooting sport, the way IPSC revived the fortunes of the .38 Super.

If there is/were a shooting sport that heavily favored a low-recoil centerfire pistol round and didn't care about diameter or ME, the .30 Luger could gain a small but loyal following, maybe kind of filling the niche that the .32 S&W wadcutter semis (a neat oddity) used to fill.
 
I have one box of .30 Luger in my "guest box" Bought it when JM Fields shut down (1978?) as it was the only box of ammo left and 60 percent off and I thought, what the heck I might "need" it one day.

I suspect it would work better than the "Monkey Wards" .410 from that time period though if I did have something to shoot it in

Turns out someone I knew had also been watching the tins of 4mm RF and the Savage Annie 10 and he got those when the price hit 50 percent. He said he almost bought the .30 Luger but could not bring himself to pay anything for something like that.

-kBob
 
Most (All) of the 7.62X26 rounds I have pulled apart have more powder in them than a 30 Luger case will hold. Assuming that these rounds are loaded with the most efficient powder for that bore size and bullet weight; and using hillbilly logic; I doubt it is possible to push an 86-90 gr bullet anywhere near the 1650 FPS some Tokarev loads achieve. There just isn't enough powder space.

One must remember, a pressure curve in a firearm is very similar to a horsepower curve on an engine. You want it to climb as rapidly as possible and stay there as long as possible. There is no question that one could achieve 38,500 PSI in a 30 Luger case....stuff some bullseye in it until said pressure was reached. But that pressure curve would peak too soon and fall off too rapidly. Using a more suitable powder would leave you with the original problem: Not enough powder space. Taking a quick look at Lyman's reloading manual #49, the fastest they could push a 93 gr was 1171, an 86 gr, 1244, 200 FPS behind the Mauser round (Which they list as interchangeable with the Tokarev round) They give no warnings about the myth that Tokarev ammo is loaded to higher pressures, because it isnt.

good for them.
 
No replacement for displacement, not even pressure (true in hit rods, true in bullets)

"If there is/were a shooting sport that heavily favored a low-recoil centerfire pistol round and didn't care about diameter or ME"
Steel? A tacticool version of Cowboy Action Shooting?

TCB
 
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