thoughts on .30 luger?

[justin22885]

How can you seriously say that?

Every military power in the world abandoned the .30 cal pistol calibers, even in SMG's, 50 to 100 years ago, due to lack of performance in combat.

It didn't 'Kick Bootie' in combat then.

And certainly nothing has changed to make it 'kick bootie' in civilian life any harder now.

rc

they didnt abandon the 30 caliber cartridges because they lacked performance to other pistol calibers, they abandoned them when they switched to intermediate cartridges like 5.56 and 7.62x39, with submachine guns no longer a main battle weapon for the soviets they made their pistols even lighter, simpler ,and more reliable by switching to their copy of the 9x18 ultra and ripping off the walther PP

 

[Jim Watson]

True... if you judge weapons usage by the Iron Curtain standard.
The few Western .30 users changed over before assault carbines (Cooperism) were common.
The main driver, I think, was the German Navy. (Until the air forces became powerful, the navies of the world were the military technology leaders.) They didn't think the .30 Luger was powerful enough so DWM came out with the 9mm. It was four years before the German Army caught on.
It took the Swiss 40 years to decide to change.
I don't know how long the Finns and Portuguese stayed with .30 Luger, but it was a while.

 

[tark]

Jim, there is not, and never was, sub gun ammo in 7.62X25. That is an old myth. The Czech ammo for the CZ 52 was never loaded to higher pressures than the other Warsaw Pact nations. The Russians did not allow that. If if had more velocity, it was because the Czechs had a superior powder to load it with.

 

[kozak6]

How can you seriously say that?

Every military power in the world abandoned the .30 cal pistol calibers, even in SMG's, 50 to 100 years ago, due to lack of performance in combat.

It didn't 'Kick Bootie' in combat then.

Soviet bloc countries used 7.62x25 up until 9x18 was popularized into the 50's or 60's, and then that was mostly for cost cutting and standardization measures. Also, it's not so much that .30 pistol calibers have been abandoned as much as it is pistol caliber SMG's have been abandoned.

It turns out that it's logistically easier and more effective to just use shortened assault rifles to perform the role of an SMG.

And certainly nothing has changed to make it 'kick bootie' in civilian life any harder now.

Except for good quality JHP's.

 

[Jim Watson]

tark, I consider all Iron Curtain 7.62x25 to be SMG ammo.
Not that it is hot loaded but because they probably shot 99.9% of it in SMGs and because it has hard primers for the purpose. These 1911 conversions usually take a 25 lb or heavier mainspring where 23 is standard and 19, even 17 will fire Western ammo.

 

[justin22885]

well the pure physics behind the original 30 luger and 9mm at roughly the same pressure would put the energy advantage to the 9mm with its larger diameter heavier bullet which would see more thrust and have more time in the barrel to pick up more speeds, original 30 luger wasnt that great which is why my interest in it is in increasing its pressures to match those of modern pistol cartridges

my primary interest would be high velocity, flatter shooting, more accurate round for a carbine but even heavier and slower 9mm vs the hotter 30 luger shows the 9mm only having about 2 inches more drop between 100 and 200 yards so.. negligible

 

[Captain O]

How can you seriously say that?

Every military power in the world abandoned the .30 cal pistol calibers, even in SMG's, 50 to 100 years ago, due to lack of performance in combat.

It didn't 'Kick Bootie' in combat then.

And certainly nothing has changed to make it 'kick bootie' in civilian life any harder now.

rc

I have seen a PPSH-1 empty a drum magazine in 5 seconds striking with 85 grain FMJ bullets at 1750 fps. It tore a gaping hole through a cinder block wall almost immediately!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq63GlFiCKE

Yeah, that doesn't have any power, does it?

 

[justin22885]

7.63 mauser > 7.62x25

 

[Captain O]

7.63 mauser > 7.62x25

Not quite. It is close, but not exactly the same. The .30 Luger runs at far lower pressures and the case is physically shorter than the 7.62 x 25. You can fire the .30 Luger in a firearm chambered for the 7.62 x 25 but not the reverse. If you attempt to fire the 7.62 x 25 in a firearm chambered for the .30 Luger, the slide will not go into battery completley without forcibly closing it (if you can) then it may blow apart, fracturing the slide, frame or the barrel.

This is not a functioning option.

 

[barnbwt]

Soviet bloc countries used 7.62x25 up until 9x18 was popularized into the 50's or 60's

And because the x25 had too little power, no doubt . Fact is, x25 is actually a bit much for a handgun, given the badly overbore performance of vintage ammunition (modern powders could potentially get identical performance with less flash). Flash/boom like a dang magnum, and only somewhat superior performance to what is probably the most efficient cartridge ever devised, 9mm.

That said, flatter shooting is a major bonus, and efficiency is often overrated (Challenger > Camry). If a 30 Luger-ish round could get the velocity of a Tokarev, even with a lighter bullet, it would bring at least that advantage to the table vs. 9mm despite having largely similar performance (probably).

"7.63 mauser > 7.62x25"
I agree, but think it's mostly one of two things; the C96 I shot has such horrible ergonomics that anything shot through it will seem more powerful than the competition, and the vintage 7.63 Mauser ammo I shot was clearly so degraded that I'd expect the few lights I got to be quite different from the original intended specs . The fact x25 cycles a C96 just fine, and 7.63 cycles a CZ52 just fine, and a 9mm powers a CZ52 & C96 with only a barrel change just fine, tells me they're all pretty much the same darn thing in the end.

TCB

 

[justin22885]

Not quite. It is close, but not exactly the same. The .30 Luger runs at far lower pressures and the case is physically shorter than the 7.62 x 25. You can fire the .30 Luger in a firearm chambered for the 7.62 x 25 but not the reverse. If you attempt to fire the 7.62 x 25 in a firearm chambered for the .30 Luger, the slide will not go into battery completley without forcibly closing it (if you can) then it may blow apart, fracturing the slide, frame or the barrel.

This is not a functioning option.

i think youre a bit confused, 7.63 mauser is 7.63x25mm, the cartridge 7.62x25 ripped off, and its not only hotter than 7.62x25 but uses .308-.309" bullets, including 110 grain 30 carbine bullets or even 150 grain round nose bullets for subsonic rounds

.30 luger is about the same COAL as 9mm

 

[barnbwt]

7.63 mauser is 7.63x25mm, the cartridge 7.62x25 ripped off, and its not only hotter than 7.62x25 but uses .308-.309" bullets

Tokarev uses .308 bullets (or .309, if you really believe Soviets were really all that consistent). Lotta folks think it uses .312 bullets like other Soviet 7.62s, but is not so.

The 7.62x25 was quite literally the Soviets' remanufacture of 7.63 Mauser. Using specs whose tolerances overlapped...using similar weight bullets at similar powder charges...for the same gun as the 7.63x25 initially...

Any difference between them is incidental, otherwise all those Soviet bolo pistols would have been useless (as would have the Chinese's). Same reason as why there was no 'special hot' subgun ammo produced that would blow up pistols.

TCB

 

[justin22885]

doesnt really matter, id rather have the real deal than some cheap, poorly implemented russian knockoff