Tony Martin threatened with death - but still disarmed...

[Preacherman]

From the Telegraph, London (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...27.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/07/27/ixnewstop.html):

Tony Martin is 'going to get it', warns cousin of the boy he shot
By Thair Shaikh and Daniel Foggo
(Filed: 27/07/2003)

Relatives of Fred Barras, the burglar shot dead by Tony Martin, last night warned that the Norfolk farmer will be murdered after his release tomorrow.

One cousin of Barras said Martin was "going to get it", while another said a hitman would be hired if the dead teenager's associates failed to carry out a retaliatory attack.

The death threats will add to fears about Martin's safety, which have already prompted police to set up a mobile station at his farm at Emneth Hungate, Norfolk.

The Telegraph can also reveal that Martin, who was moved to a safe house last week, made arrangements for a gun to be hidden at a friend's home. The weapon, which was concealed under a wardrobe in Martin's farmhouse prior to his conviction for murder in 2000, was smuggled out by his friend, Paul Cumby. Mr Cumby said last night that he still had Martin's gun, saying: "I've got that."

In a separate development, David Blunkett, the Home Secretary, has ordered the head of the Prison Service to explain the early release of Brendon Fearon, Barras's accomplice during the burglary of Martin's home in August 1999. Yesterday, Jamie Jones, a News of The World photographer, was assaulted by Fearon's brother in Newark, Notts.

Fearon, who was shot and wounded by Martin, was freed on Friday, despite serving less than a third of an 18-month sentence for heroin dealing, prompting an outcry from MPs and Martin's supporters.

Ishmael Steele, Barras's cousin, who lives on the same road in Newark where Barras grew up, said Martin would be killed. "He will get it. Something will happen to him, it's got to.

"We've got hundreds of relations who aren't happy with it. And to those who say it's just talk, I'd say wait and see. The detectives can't be with him all the time, can they?"

Another cousin of Barras, who gave his name as Georgi, said the travelling community had recently put a £60,000 bounty on Martin's head.

"He is a dead man. I don't know if it will be a traveller that will do it, but it will be a proper hitman, a professional job," he said.

Martin was jailed for life at Norwich Crown Court three years ago for killing Barras, 16. His life sentence and murder conviction were overturned on appeal and reduced to a five-year term for manslaughter. On Thursday, Martin, who was held at Highpoint Prison in Suffolk, was moved to a safe house. He is expected to remain in hiding in the days following his release, but has told friends that he then intends to return to his home.

The freeing of Fearon, 33, only three days before Martin's release, prompted an outcry yesterday with Henry Bellingham, the Norfolk farmer's MP, claiming that ministers and the prison service were pursuing a vendetta against his constituent. "This was either a coincidence, in which case it was grossly negligent and deeply insensitive, or someone, somewhere has acted out of spite." The Government responded by ordering Phil Wheatley, the head of the Prison Service, to a meeting with Mr Blunkett tomorrow to explain Fearon's release.

Dominic Grieve, the shadow prisons minister, accused Mr Blunkett of rank hypocrisy. "Fearon's release is a direct consequence of policies initiated by Mr Blunkett. The ordering of this report shows how the Home Secretary's actions are driven by a desire for the short-term media limelight. He is not in control."

 

[rrader]

This is the natural result of a legal system as sick, as poisoned, as low and as retrograde as that of the British.

How could any rational people fail to realize that prosecuting and imprisioning innocent victims of crime, and coddling the criminals themselves only emboldens the criminals.

What a backward and low legal culture the British have. Makes one wonder about their legal education system.

Even the French legal system isn't this retrograde.

 

[AZRickD]

Although Brits allow those threatened with reprisals to carry firearms, our own Agricola says this isn't specific enough and the newspaper is not a reliable source.

Rick

 

[Al Norris]

Another cousin of Barras, who gave his name as Georgi, said the travelling community had recently put a £60,000 bounty on Martin's head.

"He is a dead man. I don't know if it will be a traveller that will do it, but it will be a proper hitman, a professional job,"

If this is the same group, known also as "travellers" here in the US, then Martin is in real and immediate danger...just ask my aunt, Amy Davis of Richfield, Utah....oh wait, you can't. She was murdered on May 3, 2001 by one of them.

Agricola, just how much of a threat must one have before the police will allow Mr. Martin the right of self-defense?

 

[CZ-75]

I believe UK "travellers" are Gypsies, where as the "Irish Travellers" we have here (usually out of SC), are a different matter. I don't doubt that they are every bit as dangerous, though.

Martin definitely did his country a favor by killing that punk - before he grew up into unmitigated scum like the rest of his family.

 

[HBK]

Geez, give the man a gun and let him defend himself. I can't believe that he is being openly threatened by the relatives of the criminal. I guess that's what happens when it's illegal to defend yourself.

 

[agricola]

rrader,

yep, and no witnesses or victims have ever been targetted by criminal families before, during or after giving evidence in the highbrow United States. Martin was not found guilty by decree, or by a judge. He was found guilty by a jury of his peers who had access to ALL the available evidence, and not just the media reports that painted Martin in a good a light as possible.

Please, for once, leave your biases at home.

rest,

Given the frequent comments listed here about the efficiency of the media at distorting the truth, I'd reserve judgement (at least) about the veracity of these claims, and indeed strongly doubt them, given the past history of the media and this case. That Telegraph article is a case in point - one wonders how many doors they knocked on, how many family members they spoke to, to get that quote.

 

[agricola]

preacherman,

also your tagline is wrong. Martin is still armed - it says so in the text.

 

[Gray Peterson]

I was wondering why there was so much concern over Tony Martin's safety was such a huge concern after his release. Now I know why.

The "Travelers" are a very dangerous group, from my understanding. If you kill any of their "family", even if they commit a crime against you (Home Invasion), they swear a "death oath" on you, and they will not stop until you are dead.

Good thing I live here in Oregon. Lock and load!

 

[Diesle]

which have already prompted police to set up a mobile station at his farm at Emneth Hungate, Norfolk

****


Diesle

 

[Powderman]

It is a pitiful shame of the worst sort that a man cannot defend his home and his family from goblins, thieves and murderers.

I know that this good man will probably not leave his homeland. But if he should choose to do so, he is welcome in the United States. As a matter of fact, I would be honored to welcome him to my home.

Let those sniveling punks, traveler or not, show up around my house.

And, a death oath? Let them take all the oaths they want. As far as carrying them out--

"Cry Havoc! And let slip the dogs of war!"

Bring it!

 

[Al Norris]

CZ-75, the UK "travelers" are in fact the same as those here in the US. It's where ours came from. At least, it was documented as such during the trial of the scum that killed my aunt.

 

[HBK]

Perhaps a blood oath is needed against them...if that's the only thing they understand.

 

[rrader]

Agricola:

yep, and no witnesses or victims have ever been targetted by criminal families before, during or after giving evidence in the highbrow United States. Martin was not found guilty by decree, or by a judge. He was found guilty by a jury of his peers who had access to ALL the available evidence, and not just the media reports that painted Martin in a good a light as possible.

In fairness, yes it does happen in the US. In fact I can look out the window of my Office here in Virginia to a political jurisdiction, Washington D.C., where it happens very regularly. The legal system in D.C., at the local level anyway, approaches being just as low and retrograde as that of the UK with regards to gun ownership and the natural right of self-defense.

The difference is that the legal system in D.C. is the exception in the U.S., not the rule.

And if anyone here were to defend the City of Washington D.C.'s legal system as you have defended the U.K's, I imagine that they would be opposed just as strongly as you have been.

 

[agricola]

rrader,

no, i'm pretty sure witness intimidation is global in its scope, unfortunately.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Of course witnesses are threatened here. But for the most part, our government does not respond by saying "Tough! That's what you get for committing such a barbaric crime against their poor dead cousin!" Yours does. If Tony Martin lived in my area, his neighbors would be ready to lend a hand. In Britain, they don't have that option.

As for Martin being armed, you yourself said he can't get a gun license and the police have cameras in his home, not to mention a mobile station set up on his property. Are you referring to Mr. Cumby's shotgun? I presume that if anyone can legally own that gun, it would be Cumby. You can't have it both ways, sir.

I don't approve of calling the British as a people "retrograde" or "degenerate." Your government, though, is repressive and statist, and the people did, after all, elect it. They certainly share some responsibility, just as I have to take some responsibility for our problems over here.

 

[bbrins]

also your tagline is wrong. Martin is still armed - it says so in the text.

The Telegraph can also reveal that Martin, who was moved to a safe house last week, made arrangements for a gun to be hidden at a friend's home. The weapon, which was concealed under a wardrobe in Martin's farmhouse prior to his conviction for murder in 2000, was smuggled out by his friend, Paul Cumby. Mr Cumby said last night that he still had Martin's gun, saying: "I've got that."

agricola,
Is this the text that you are referring to? If so, then I think that his friend is armed, not Martin. You don't actually think that the police are going to allow Martin to have that gun back, do you? They will probably go way out of their way to make sure that he does not get it or another.

I think it is sick that they would prosecute the victim in the first place. If anyone should have gone to jail for manslaughter or better yet, murder, it should have been Barras's accomplice, Brendon Fearon.

 

[rrader]

Don Gwinn:

I have edited my first post to reflect that I meant to refer to only the legal system of the UK as low and retrograde. Labeling the entirety of the people and culture of the UK as such is of course painting with too broad a brush.

As was mentioned in another thread, folks in the UK have contributed around 92 thousand pounds to Martin's defense fund and there is a lot of popular resentment to what has happened to him. These are both things that speak well of the British people.

 

[agricola]

Don,

But for the most part, our government does not respond by saying "Tough! That's what you get for committing such a barbaric crime against their poor dead cousin!" Yours does.

It doesnt - in fact Martin has had far more "protection" (I use inverted comments because I still think these "threats" are mere rehashes of the pre-trial "threats") than your average convicted killer, which is at the end of the day what he is. Normal, actual victims of crime are treated well, and intimidation of witnesses is hugely frowned on by the courts.

With regard to Martin's gun, I think we all know that as soon as he is released he will get his hands on it and so he will be armed.

With regards to the Government, lord knows it has its faults and, sadly, the sooner the General Election comes the better so that we can be done with it. However labels like "repressive" and "statist" dont mean much, because at the end of the day they appear repressive and statist to the American mind, just as your Government appears barbaric and repressive to us. Its just a matter of perspective.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Ah, yes. The vaunted "perspective."

Some things, sir, are a matter of perspective. Nowadays it's considered wisdom to fall back on a different "perspective" in any disagreement. Can't really argue with someone's "perspective," of course. My students are fond of a similar trick--the Opinion Gambit. "It's my opinion, and opinions can't be wrong."

Neither, of course, is true. There are things one ought not do because they are objectively wrong. Prosecuting a man for murder when defends his home and his life is objectively wrong. I don't care if there's a "perspective" or a "culture" out there that approves. It's still wrong no matter how many peopld approve.

Your government is providing security--or surveillance of Martin himself. That much is true. Perhaps I should have said that you, Agricola, were the one who proclaimed that whatever happens to Martin is not so bad because he's a murderer you wouldn't trust with a toaster, but that seemed a bit personal. That does seem to be your view.

However, I do note that your government does not seem to have changed its position on the radical idea of simply leaving Mr. Martin alone to live in peace and defend himself in the first place, much less made any move to avoid the next time the exact same thing happens. There will either be more like Tony Martin, or more people will be acquiescent victims because they understand the message your government was sending when it made an example of Martin.


This may be entirely unrelated, but I also find it interesting that the "Traveler" connection hasn't been covered much, at least in the U.S. That would tend to make most people think twice about these poor, harmless burglars who shouldn't have faced death just because they wanted to rob some mean old man a little bit.

 

[agricola]

Don,

I agree with you - prosecuting a man who was defending himself is wrong; the very substance of this case is that Martin was NOT defending himself at the time he shot Barras. We can argue over this until the cows come home, but the fact is that a jury of his peers found him guilty of the murder. That jury also had access to all the facts of the case, and one thinks that one has shown that the reporting of this case has fallen way short of objectivity.

I actually said that, in light of his mental condition and his prior behaviour, I wouldnt trust him with a stapler. It was already the case that Martin was paranoid about people - especially gypsies - breaking into his property; now, thanks largely to the media, he will be expecting assasins at any time of the day or night. I reserve my pity for the poor soul who happens to come into contact with him while getting lost walking, or having broken down and asking to use the phone.

 

[seeker_two]

And how many Tony Martin's will have to die before guys like agricola get the point?...

BTW, what was it that you do again?...

 

[rrader]

seeker_two:

BTW, what was it that you do again?...

Ditto.

 

[agricola]

seeker,

the answer was on TFL, ages ago.

 

[AZRickD]

Agricola said: "yep, and no witnesses or victims have ever been targetted by criminal families before,"

This is the same line the anti-gunners in New York give for denying a pistol permit... "You're in no more danger of being a crime victim than anyone else. Request denied, peon."

Rick