Tony Martin threatened with death - but still disarmed...

[agricola]

KC,

no, no and no.

The voter here belongs to one of about 650 constituencies, or areas of the country which return a single MP. He or she votes locally for that MP - who may be anything from the PM to a new candidate. This is not "voting for a party ticket", although each PPC (Prospective Parliamentary Candidate) or standing MP will usually be a member of one of the major parties (independents can and do stand and win though). Margaret got into power because the Conservative Party felt that she was the person with the best chance of leading them to power. Your understanding of coalition building would be more apt when considering the US political system.

Your wilful misunderstanding of the way social reform occupied much of the 1800s and early 1900s has enabled you to come up with your nonsensical argument. As a case in point, take Margaret herself. The daughter of a grocer, she rose to lead the country, becoming one of the first women in the world to do so (and at the head of the most reactionary party). Her success was as a result of that social reform, and its something which as of yet has not happened in the US. You need to further understand the way in which the UK political system works because you clearly dont understand it.

The issue of the coalfields is interesting. Before the great Strike of the early 1980's, the coal industry was relatively successful in that it enabled mining communities to survive; once it was removed you were left with whole towns with no employment prospects, which led to a number of social ills - heroin addiction, petty crime, alcoholism etc. The cost of these problems is far more than any losses incurred by the Coal industry (which was at that time nationalized).

There hasnt been a Lucas car company for the period I've been alive - they make sparkplugs and bulbs and the like. With regards to cars and the quality thereof, please explain why all Formula One companies rely on British engineers, and also explain Lotus, Jaguar, TVR, Aston Martin etc.

 

[rrader]

Noteable British Quotations Series:

"The treatment of the Irish was no different to any of a dozen other losing sides of wars, including the American Indians at your own countries hands."-Agricola

"Anyone want to go sailing?"

Lord Mountbatten, 27 Aug. 1979


(Talk about slow learners... jeeez )

 

[Zedicus]

First off I would like to Offer my Sympathy to Mr Martin in the Obvious Terror He must be feeling knowing that people have put a price on his life.
(never know he may be reading or my read this in future)

The Brittish goverment here Requires a socalled Justifyable Reason for the authorisation of a person to have a firearm/weapon for the purpose of self defence.

My Question, Since when Isn't Having a (for lack of a better term) Hitman sent after your Head, not a Justifyable reason for use of lethal force in self defence?

 

[rrader]

Agricola:

There hasnt been a Lucas car company for the period I've been alive - they make sparkplugs and bulbs and the like. With regards to cars and the quality thereof, please explain why all Formula One companies rely on British engineers, and also explain Lotus, Jaguar, TVR, Aston Martin etc

Or better yet, how about an examination of BSA (in it's day bigger than Honda Motorcycles is today), Norton, Enfield, Triumph, etc...

Socialism killed Triumph Motorcycles, and a classic Capitalist: Sir John Bloor brought it back in the teeth of massive Japanese competition. Triumph now produces great, high-quality motorcycles that even "Harley Types" can appreciate.

Contrast today's Triumph with the pitifull Meridan socialist worker's co-operative that ran it into the ground.

 

[Iain]

Noteable British Quotations Series:

quote:
"The treatment of the Irish was no different to any of a dozen other losing sides of wars, including the American Indians at your own countries hands."-Agricola

"Anyone want to go sailing?"
Lord Mountbatten, 27 Aug. 1979
(Talk about slow learners... jeeez )

I don't understand what you mean by this rrader.
Agricola makes a perfectly valid point.

 

[Kharn]

St. Johns
Lord Mountbatten was blown up by the IRA while onboard his sailboat on August 27, 1979, their statement regarding the bombing included: "This operation is one of the discriminate ways we can bring to the attention of the English people the continuing occupation of our country."

Kharn

 

[Iain]

I know that.

Why is this any different to the way that many countries have treated those natives of the land's they now inhabit?

Does that justify terror and murder by the IRA? Or by the Loyalists? Or by the British?

 

[Cosmoline]

There's no hope left in the UK. Martin needs to sell everything and high-tail it to the free world.

 

[rrader]

I don't understand what you mean by this rrader. Agricola makes a perfectly valid point..

I am not trying to justify any act by the IRA post 1927.

Your statement should be added to the list. Too bad the folks in Ireland haven't been content to console themselves with the thought that thier 700 years of dispossession are common to many "defeated peoples" and that, on a relative scale, their treatment doesn't approach the level of barbarity meted out to groups like the Armenians or the European Jewery. Really quite unreasonable of those Irish folks not to see the reasonableness of this.

On a related subjct, has the law in the UK been changed to allow a Catholic to be Prime Minister, or to allow a member of the Royal family to marry a Catholic? Just wondering. The Republic of Ireland seems to be a bit more advanced than the UK in that regard, having had both Jewish and Protestant Prime Ministers in an overwhelmingly Catholic nation.

 

[Iain]

The law has been changed, so yes they can. Perhaps you could inform me how recently some states still banned homosexual acts? We are not the only ones with funny laws.

I don't support British rule in Northern Ireland, funny thing is though the situation is a lot more complicated than people think. You try telling people that regard themselves as British that the country they live in is now Ireland, they tend to have these terrorist groups that kneecap people too.

Do we have to mention Native Americans, or have you forgotten about that?

So I ask again - you fought the Indian Wars against that ''menace'', we did wrong things too - this gives you the right to bash the British how?

 

[MicroBalrog]

Right on the money St. Johns, but: What does all that have to do with Martin?

 

[Iain]

sorry

 

[agricola]

I do love the way in which parts of American opinion seek to justify the IRA. Was the British rule in Ireland filled with tragedy and acts of terror? Yes. Is that rule unique in the world? No.

 

[rrader]

Do we have to mention Native Americans, or have you forgotten about that?

No, I am well aware of how my Native American ancestors (Narragansett) were treated, i.e., not nearly as badly as the Irish, not nearly as well as the Mashantucket (cash-in-buckets) Pequot (casino) tribe in CT.

Most of the serious abuse of the eastern tribes took place while America was still comprised of British colonies. Additionally, a lot of the initial warfare was conducted by tribes acting against other tribes in conjunction with the white settlers.

http://www.narragansett-tribe.org/

The point I was making is that the treatment of other groups has little bearing on how the Irish look at their history and doesn't excuse that treatment.

Perhaps you could inform me how recently some states still banned homosexual acts? We are not the only ones with funny laws.

The anti-sodomy laws in the US are not equivalent in any way to the ant-Catholic laws imposed by the Crown in Ireland. The anti-sodomy laws merely prohibited acts that are condemned by the Bible and affected only a few, whereas the anti-Catholic laws were used to disposess and subjugate an entire people to the point of genocide.

 

[CZ-75]

There hasnt been a Lucas car company for the period I've been alive - they make sparkplugs and bulbs and the like. With regards to cars and the quality thereof, please explain why all Formula One companies rely on British engineers, and also explain Lotus, Jaguar, TVR, Aston Martin etc.

Ah, Lucas electric, "the Princes of Darkness." Crapola with a capital C.

please explain why all Formula One companies rely on British engineers

Handicapping?

and also explain Lotus, Jaguar, TVR, Aston Martin etc.

You mean GM, Ford, who cares, and Ford, don't you?

 

[Preacherman]

From the Telegraph, London, 07/30/03:

Article at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...30.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/07/30/ixnewstop.html:

Shootings were like a horror film

By David Sapsted and Graham Tibbetts
(Filed: 30/07/2003)

Tony Martin described last night how his heart raced and he felt "his body was about to explode" the moment before he shot dead a burglar and wounded another.

The 58-year-old farmer, who says he has been "misunderstood", recalled the fateful shots that killed Fred Barras, 16, and injured his accomplice, Brendon Fearon, after serving two thirds of a five-year prison sentence for manslaughter.

Norfolk police continue their 24-hour vigil at Bleak Farm
Mr Martin, who had endured numerous break-ins at his home at Bleak House, Emneth Hungate in Norfolk, said he heard the two intruders and reached for his shotgun.

"I went over to the chair and got a handful of cartridges and loaded the gun. By this time I could feel my heart going boom, boom, boom," he told the Daily Mirror.

"My heart was racing. It was as though my whole body was about to explode - it was like a horror film."

At this point Barras and his accomplice, Fearon, shone a torch in his eyes and he began shooting, said Mr Martin.

"My finger was on the trigger and I fired. I was aware I had shot the gun. At the time I had no idea I had fired more than once."

Mr Martin, who regained his freedom on Monday after his release from Highpoint prison in Suffolk, said he regretted the death of Barras in August 1999 but had no feelings of remorse.

"I don't feel anything about anyone or anything," he said. "That might make me sound like a cold and callous man but I can't help that. I was forced to do what I did because of the circumstances of that night."

He believed the public had failed to appreciate the difficulty of his circumstances in rural Norfolk, where police were unable to prevent repeated break-ins.

"I can't believe how misunderstood I have been," he said. "I have a lot of supporters but there are a lot of people out there who think I am a madman who is only too happy to kill."

Mr Martin insisted he had no intention of killing Barras. "I did kill, but I certainly wasn't happy to do so. I was devastated when I discovered I had killed a boy.

"All I can say is that I didn't mean to do it. I didn't even know I had done it until much later." He added: "Nobody has the right to kill - even to suggest they have is crass and deplorable."

Mr Martin said he warned the police in May 1999 that if burglars broke in again, he would take drastic action. "After the second break-in, I rang the police and said, 'If they come back, I'll shoot them'. The reason I said this - and it was a dangerous thing to say - was because I hoped it would make them protect me; provoke a response, spur them on to do something."

Malcolm Starr, who led the campaign for Mr Martin's freedom, said the farmer was insisting on returning home.

"I spoke to him by telephone late last night," said Mr Starr. "He was in a very good mood. He was mainly concerned about seeing his dog and getting back to his farm."

Police were continuing to maintain a high profile presence outside Mr Martin's farm. "He finds it all very amusing and ironic," said Mr Starr. "He said to me, 'It seems I have got my own police force now.' "

Mr Martin had earlier described the move as "shutting the stable door after the horse had bolted".

Norfolk police defended their decision to site a mobile police station at the entrance to the remote farmhouse. Reports have been continuing to circulate that a £25,000 bounty has been put on Martin's head in revenge for his killing of Barras.

"We are making a proportionate response to the situation we are faced with. Given the situation and the report of threats against Mr Martin, it would be irresponsible if we did not do that," said a police spokesman.