Total Disappointment

[RecoilRob]

Every time one of these threads about this or that gun being 'unreliable' comes up I'm reminded of the P-40 KelTec saga. I was an early P-11 owner and watched along as the P-40's struggled and finally were pulled from the shelves. Problem was that about 99% of the guns that were sent back for service were found to be in perfect operating condition! How can you fix what isn't broken? Of course the problem mostly was the cartridge being used was really pushing the platform and needed an extremely firm grip to function which was beyond most potential owners abilities.

When dealing with 'smallest and/or lightest' versions of most pistols the responsibilities on the springs are increased when mass has been removed. A large and heavy slide only needs the recoil spring to reload the next round...whereas the itty-bitty guns need the spring to both hold the slide closed and reload. This also increases the sensitivity of hold being the time of recoil impulse is so short that very tiny differences can affect function on an otherwise reliable gun. It can even come down to how fatty your hand might be and how hard you squeeze less of a factor. The old saying of something 'not being right for me' is very likely a truism.

I'd not venture into the mini-gun arena without being fully aware of the boundaries being pushed and willing to experiment with both ammo and springs to find a reliable combination. Expecting it to work for anyone with anything being fed is unrealistic IMHO. If that is your requirement....stick to the full size pistols for best results. My little guns work just fine...with their specific ammo and having had their springing gone over to make them work in MY hands. YMMV.

 

[BSA1]

Again, the issue is that a firearm should function properly out of the box, no ‘sending back’ to the manufacturer required, no 'second chance' is warranted – an expectation that is neither naïve nor unrealistic.

And when a new firearm fails to function properly, a public flogging is perfectly appropriate.

There is no excuse for the manufacturer NOT to test fire a full magazine or cylinder full (for a revolver) before releasing the gun for sale. Such testing would improve the quality of the gun I am sure the "bean counters" position is it is cheaper to repair guns that come back from owners.

 

[SeanSw]

This only begins to mirror my experience with a CM9. Nothing but misery and expense along with the cold reception and ridicule of the Kahr forum that had the impression I don't know how to use a pistol. Then there was the additional lack of support from Kahr who only agreed to receive the gun at my expense but would further require another 300 rounds of break in before I was allowed to make another pass/fail assessment of the gun. Requiring hundreds of rounds of ammunition to test or break in a firearm is obscene, especially when asked to do it twice, with the added expense of premium self defense ammunition. It's a shame, they would have been ideal for otherwise. It was eventually replaced with a Springfield xds that has been excellent.

 

[71velle]

This only begins to mirror my experience with a CM9. Nothing but misery and expense along with the cold reception and ridicule of the Kahr forum that had the impression I don't know how to use a pistol. Then there was the additional lack of support from Kahr who only agreed to receive the gun at my expense but would further require another 300 rounds of break in before I was allowed to make another pass/fail assessment of the gun. Requiring hundreds of rounds of ammunition to test or break in a firearm is obscene, especially when asked to do it twice, with the added expense of premium self defense ammunition. It's a shame, they would have been ideal for otherwise. It was eventually replaced with a Springfield xds that has been excellent.

So, was it fixed after repair?

 

[SeanSw]

So, was it fixed after repair?

No, I never sent it back to the factory after being told I would have to pay for shipping and still commit to another testing phase after it returned. No thanks. Money better spent on another firearm.

 

[1stmarine]

My buddy had the same problems with a 9mm.
Sent to the factory and back and still could not depend on it w/o failures even after hundred of rounds it got better but always got stoppages nobody could explain.
He got rid of it. He carries the glock and shield for light carry/summer, like me.
It is sad because they are nice looking and compact little guns.

 

[jdc1244]

My CT 380 will be sold soon.

Needless to say I’ll never buy another Kahr.

The company doesn’t merit a ‘second chance’ to fix it, and Kahr has only itself to blame for bad press, a bad reputation, and any lost sales.

 

[milemaker13]

It does suck when something doesn't work, regardless of what it is or who made it. Although I have come to love Kahr (CW9), I completely understand your frustration in this situation.
Best of luck with your next piece, I hope you find something that you can trust and depend on.

 

[d'zaster]

I have a P380. After extensive break of over 600 rounds, it was no better (various factory and hand loaded ammo) with FTF, FTE, slide not locking back and light strikes...... Sent it back to Kahr 3 times. I've also had problem with the magazines. They sent me a new gun which works a lot better (hot loads only) but not reliable enough for me to carry (primarily light strikes and FTF). Their support is good but after all this, I'm done and it is for sale. Too bad because the dimensions are perfect for pocket carry. The trigger, sights and accuracy are a lot better than my G42. Not bashing the company but I will never own another Kahr after this experience.

 

[nebraska_farmer]

I had a similar experience a few years ago, and posted about it here on THR. P380, sent it back two or three times and never could get it to cycle a magazine without some type of hang up. Very frustrating, told myself I'd never buy another Kahr - moved on to Glocks and haven't looked back.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I've had a P9 and a CW9 and they worked fine. Got both of them used, so if there was a break-in routine, it happened before I got them. I didn't care for the CW9 -- but I think I was expecting it to look and feel like a gun that cost several hundred $$ more than it sold for when new. That was my problem -- not a gun problem.. It functioned properly.

Keep in mind that the Kahr manuals tell user to use (press) the slide release to chamber the first round of the mag -- saying that sling-shotting the slide will often not chamber the round properly. I think some of the "feeding" complaints are tied to this point -- and the fact that some owners don't read the manual.

 

[DT Guy]

I've had a P9 and a CW9 and they worked fine. Got both of them used, so if there was a break-in routine, it happened before I got them. I didn't care for the CW9 -- but I think I was expecting it to look and feel like a gun that cost several hundred $$ more than it sold for when new. That was my problem -- not a gun problem.. It functioned properly.

Keep in mind that the Kahr manuals tell user to use (press) the slide release to chamber the first round of the mag -- saying that sling-shotting the slide will often not chamber the round properly. I think some of the "feeding" complaints are tied to this point -- and the fact that some owners don't read the manual.

I also think their light weight (for their respective chamberings) can make them sensitive to limp-wristing, even for those who have no trouble with other guns. I believe my CW45 was such a case.

Larry

 

[RainDodger]

On a forum you're going to hear good and you're going to hear bad. I've heard a lot of good things about Kahr customer service so I'll be curious how your problem works out. All that being said, after researching Kahrs off and on for a couple of years, I bought a CM9. It's now at 600+ rounds and it has not failed one single time. Not even fresh out of the box. Maybe it's the smaller caliber that has more problems, but interesting nonetheless. Please let us know how it comes out, and good luck.

 

[Nuclear]

I think Kahr's problem is the same as 1911s - they pushed the envelope of the gun too far from the original design. You will never hear of a steel framed Kahr in 9mm malfunctioning. When they went to polymer, they got a little more problematic. Then smaller polymer models. And different calibers.

 

[miamivicedade]

Sorry for this late update. I got the gun back from Kahr, and so far have not been able to get out to the range. I have however cycled the action with snap caps a lot, and it has cycled properly every time (something it wouldn't do prior to it being sent in for service.) I am optimistic that it will function. When I get it out I will update everyone on it. I would really like to carry this, but won't until I verify that it is working properly, after quite a few rounds.

 

[bannockburn]

miamivicedade

Sounds promising at least. Please keep us updated and good luck!

 

[Dudedog]

Sorry for this late update. I got the gun back from Kahr, and so far have not been able to get out to the range. I have however cycled the action with snap caps a lot, and it has cycled properly every time (something it wouldn't do prior to it being sent in for service.) I am optimistic that it will function. When I get it out I will update everyone on it. I would really like to carry this, but won't until I verify that it is working properly, after quite a few rounds

Hope it works out for you.
Like I mentioned earlier it took my P380 about 200 rounds to start loosen up.

 

[Gordon]

While they do make some bad ones : S&W and Ruger pay for their problems to be returned as long as it takes to fix them. S&W is crazy quick to send you a next day label. Quess which brands I would buy new ?

 

[WestKentucky]

Sorry to hear about that. I'm having a similar experience right now with a mill. I got one of those Sieg mini mills on sale with the idea that I could leave it set up for a single operation, as repositioning and retruing the vice takes 10x longer than the actual milling operation. Well, on high speed it makes this bizarre chirping sound, so now I'm playing this game with the importer where they send me a new part once or twice a month, and I replace it, then report back to them that the chirping sound hasn't changed. So far they've sent me a spindle, a new motor, and I've got a new transmission on the way. I've spent more time working on it than I have using it, probably by a factor of ten, and as a result I now know more about Sieg mills than I ever wanted to.

And here's the kicker. If they had taken 15 seconds at the factory to turn the thing on to see if it works, then it would have become immediately apparent to them that something was wrong and I wouldn't be dealing with this nonsense right now.

Yep. My mill wasn't a seig but it was the same mill with a different paint job. I gave up on it once it spit parts out at me at high rpm. I think I'm gonna just hold out for a small knee mill now.

 

[Skylerbone]

What I find most odd is when someone asks how many rounds should be fired before declaring a pistol fit for carry rotation that 200-500 rounds very often come up as mile markers. When Kahr puts that in writing some people take exception to it even if they’re planning to test extensively. I think 200 rounds to become acquainted with a piece of equipment that may some day save your life is worth the money and effort.

I’ve purchased 2 Kahr pistols, a K9 I carry and a CW9 I gave to my father for carry. Neither has ever bobbled in thousands of rounds but on a long enough timeline I expect both will reach that point. Extractors wear out, springs weaken, and replacement parts will be needed.

I feel for the OP having to send his new pistol back but every product has an initial defect rate from toasters to rockets. I have no reservations about Kahr or their products. If I bought one that didn’t work, I’d have it fixed and life would go on.

 

[Fleetman]

I've never had an issue with mine but they are all P's.....

I do a thorough break-in and always load them via slide-lock and not sling-shot.

 

[SwampWolf]

If the OP didn't follow the usual Kahr "break in" routine (racking slide a few hundred times, thorough cleaning & then lube, 200 rounds down range), then it wouldn't surprise me if it got off to a horrible start. Then again, it wouldn't surprise me if it did the same even after following all the recommended steps.

I guess nothing surprises you.

But i see and hear a lot of people buying micro guns, which have been historically hit or miss, then we're surprised when they're it or miss.

What do you mean by "historically"? Is the buyer responsible for knowing the history of a pistol design when the configuration is "historically" known to be deficient in terms of functionality? If the buyer is "surprised", he apparently hasn't done due diligence in researching his purchase? If I bought a toaster that "historically" was known to burn the bread if it was a 2-slice model instead of a 4-slice model, is it my responsibility to not only have known the difference but to have accepted the notion that a manufacturer can be excused for turning out a deficient product because the consumer "should have known better"?

I think it's high time that we stop being enablers for companies that crank out products that even they have good reason to believe have a better than average chance of not working as promised. In the case of Kahr, my advice would be to make pistols that perform correctly straight out of the box like so many others can do (to include Glock, Smith & Wesson, CZ, HK, Springfield, Taurus, Beretta and others), without requiring a mandated "breaking-in" protocol-hello, Kimber...

 

[Skylerbone]

In the case of Kahr, my advice would be to make pistols that perform correctly straight out of the box like so many others can do (to include Glock, Smith & Wesson, CZ, HK, Springfield, Taurus, Beretta and others)

Glock had stumbles with Gen 3 pistols, S&W’s M&P 9s were notorious for extractor issues, CZ’s P-07 had mag release issues, the H&K USP Compact has firing pin and FPB recall issues, Springfield’s XD-s was recalled over the safety, Taurus is in the midst of a class-action suit at present, and the Beretta Neos was recalled over a defective safety. I don’t think any manufacturer is immune to problems, at least none on your list.

I’ve owned 3 pistols on the above list and experienced no problems over many thousands of rounds but somewhere, someone did and believe me they let EVERYONE know who would listen. Add Ruger and Remington to the above list of companies with multiple recalls and swearing off “historically” problematic manufacturers would leave us with slingshots.

A few Rugers that have been recalled:
Single-Six
Bearcat
Blackhawk
Super Blackhawk
SR9
P85
LCP
American Rimfire
SR-556VT
Mark IV
Precision Rifle
Model 77

Six of those are current production firearms and still Ruger enjoys a reputation for manufacturing reliable firearms.

 

[SwampWolf]

I don’t think any manufacturer is immune to problems, at least none on your list.

My list doesn't infer perfection or lack of potential problems-that would be stupid. It only means that there are many, if not most, firearm manufacturers who expect their products to function correctly and for the buyer to expect the same, out of the box, without several hundred "break-in" rounds to be fired first.
My list does not include manufacturers who anticipate problems because the barrels are shorter on some pistol configurations than "average" (micro 1911 pistols in this instance) and that abbreviated barrel lengths "historically" implies that proper functioning is a "hit or miss" proposition.

 

[George P]

The Kahr CW380 appears to be the biggest culprit with problems. Kahr recommends a thorough cleaning prior to use. I use BreakClean. They even have a small hole in the inner part of the slide to spray through to clean out the striker channel. Once cleaned and lubed Kahr recommends only loading via the slide stop. Sling shots won't work until the gun is fully broken in as they are very strongly sprung.

I have had a CM9, PM9, K9 MK9 and CW9 and none of them gave me a problem. My biggest problem with Kahrs is finding night sights and getting used to the very long trigger pull.

PS. Also check your magazine springs to see that they are installed correctly.

That has been an issue for some time; often the spring is in backwards. IIRC, The Kahr forum has a sticky about what to do to the gun before firing; it's pretty comprehensive.

http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread.php?1521-Proper-prep-of-a-new-kahr

http://www.kahrtalk.com/showthread....TF-and-failure-to-return-to-battery-on-CW-380