UK vs US Gun Control & Crime Statistics?

[Bo_Nidle]

I for one will openly carry my lock knife on it's key ring for all to see.

A bit of friendly advice mate: You state yourself you know you'll be arrested for it so why criminalise yourself? Get a non-locking knife with a blade of similar size (Less than 3" anyway) and you should be okay.

If you are in the security trade and are badged you'll end up losing your job and for what?

Just advice, I'll leave it to you.

 

[Shung]

Only hope about GB is that it's surrounded by water, and the global warming is going on

Bo Nidle, you are welcome here, asylum granted on our HIGH enough mountains

 

[Travis Bickle]

The real reason why we have draconian gun laws is that this and past UK governments are scared stiff of the 'people' being armed.

I've read elsewhere that the first big gun grab in the U.K. was passed with the avowed purpose of thwarting a possible revolution. Parliament was afraid that soldiers returning home from WWI might get ideas.

 

[Odd Job]

Considering that the police forces I spoke to on this were as obstructive as could possibly be without telling me to go take a long walk off a short pier. Justifications for each weapon and have a legitimate purpose for hunting or sporting reasons. Given that the police also have to consider you have a "good reason" which seems to be purely subjective in my experience.

I had a very good experience getting my FAC, but then I had a few things in my favour:

1) Two valid pistol licenses from South Africa and a police clearance certificate from SA.
2) Current job as agency radiographer involved working with vulnerable patients (kids and elderly) and therefore I was subject to background checks at least once a year anyway.

I got that FAC approved within two weeks, from the time I handed the form in, to the time I was told on the phone I had been approved.

Something that might make you chuckle: when the guy came to interview me, I told him I had a long history with guns, and in fact I was doing some research into gunshot wounds. I had the books on the shelf behind me and said he can have a look at some of the content if he wants

@ Bo Nidle

C019 is the new name for that unit, S019 is the previous name.

 

[notorious]

Bo Nidle,

So the AFOs sit in their car and load their Sigs and then come back out after they have been confronted by a group of drunk belligerents who brandished a weapon at them?

How long does it take for them to run back and get a gun and come back out? They are very lucky that the gun wasn't real and the baddie didn't just walk up to them and blast them both in the car as they tried to load their Sigs.

That is about as ridiculous as I hear. Why even bother having cops when even the 2nd line of armed cops have to run first before engaging? It's a mad, mad world.

As for the FACs... sounds like what we got here in CA, arbitrary and capricious and totally against every free living principle I have.

 

[Mk VII]

The answer is that the Great British Public would rather have a certain number (not currently excessive) of policemen killed on duty than reconcile themselves to an armed police force. We don't really want to policed on the American basis of "Do as I say or I'll kill you".

 

[notorious]

We don't really want to policed on the American basis of "Do as I say or I'll kill you".

Which of America's best nobel laureate poets did you listen to lately to get that idea? Ice-T, Snoop Dogg, or Fiddy Cent?

I am an American policeman (and damned proud) and I haven't killed anyone for not listening to me.

 

[woodybrighton]

The gun grab happened because of dunblane to get the same effect stateside you'd have to minigun a mall or something
There have been two spree killings in the UK in the last 100 years.
Had one bizarrie drive by shooting outside my house where an oddball shot an old man in the leg with a .32 for no reason man walked couple of hundred yards to a drugstore thinking he'd been shot with an air pistol.
armed police kicked our door in setting the boobytraps off (game of killer had got seriously out of hand )
12 bore blanks rigged to tripwires
after they had searched my room no easy task small room kit from last weekends exercise festering etc etc. lost intrest and procededed to watch cricket on our TV and eat all are choccy biscuits :banghead:
nutter was caught two days later threatened another stranger with gun and got punched hard

 

[Afy]

Some interesting statistics
OF INTEREST TO EVERYONE IN THE UK
(22/1/09) Home Office Figures

THE CRIMINAL SHOOTER - ENGLAND AND WALES
Deaths and injuries caused by the illegal use of guns (excluding airguns.)
1969 - - - - 173
1988 - - - - 410
2007/8 - - - 2,203

THE LEGAL SHOOTER - ENGLAND AND WALES
Certificates for the legal use of guns
1988 - - - - 1,037,400
2005/6 - - - - 691,508
(As usual, the firearm certificate figures from the Home Office are delayed and will be well out of date when we get them)

CRIMES INVOLVING THE USE OF HANDGUNS
1988 - - - - 1,484
1998/9 - - - 2,687
2007/8 - - - 4,172

 

[Afy]

Throdgrain: Actually I was going to try to paitently explain a bit more, but England and France is the final straw.

Im off bye.

Hey leave France out of it. We have very senseble laws compared tot he UK on guns.
With the exception of happy guns we can pretty much own anything.

 

[Hawk]

Hey leave France out of it. We have very senseble laws compared tot he UK on guns.

Just out of curiosity, does Laetitia Daguenel (or IPSC generally) get much media attention over there?

 

[Shung]

not really. I only know about laetitia because I visit french gun forums and in Geneva we watch french TV's at least as mush as Swiss...

With the exception of happy guns we can pretty much own anything

hem.. not really.. 1st you are seriously limited in numbers for 1st and 4th category guns.. (7-4 if I remember correctly)

2nd you don't really "own" those categories since if for any reason you should stop being a sportshooter, you'd have to sell them, turn them in or.... neutralise them..

and this does not match my definition of very senseble laws ...

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The UK v US on crime and gun control is pretty useless.

In 1972, Colin Greenwood (British police and firearms expert) published his study of the effect of the 1920 British Firearms Act and the 1968 Gun Control Act. As he pointed out, half a century of increasing restrictions on handguns lead to MORE use of handguns in crime and a greater availibility of illegal handguns on British streets in the 1970s, than before 1920 when overall British gun laws were actually less restrictive than most jurisdictions in the USA.

It is the before-and-after effects of British gun laws that is significant, not a crumpets-and-donuts comparison of UK v US crime rates.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Other random factoids:

Internal government documents released under the 75-year umbrella of the official secrets law show that the primary impulse behind the 1920 BFA was a reaction to the Russian revolution and the fear it could happen in UK.

As late as 1950 most approved UK handgun certificates listed self-defense as a reason. It was the 1968 GCA that ended self-defense as a justification for aquiring a handgun.

 

[Tommygunn]

There have been two spree killings in the UK in the last 100 years.

A number of years ago I recall reading of an incident in Harrod's (a major London dept. store) in which one guy with a knife attacked 18 people. I don't remember the specifics (like #of fatalities) but wouldn't that qualify as a "spree" crime? Or maybe not; after all a knife was used.

 

[woodybrighton]

don't think he managed to kill anyone but there have been a couple of machete attacks as well.
not impossible but much harder to inflict mutiple fatalities with a blade
french laws are way more sensible than UK law
shooters are a tiny minoirty in the UK people who advocate RTKBA and self defense could fill a small pub

 

[Shung]

"not impossible but much harder to inflict mutiple fatalities with a blade"

really think so ? look Japan, France, or recent Belgium cases..

 

[ChromeLibrarian]

not impossible but much harder to inflict mutiple fatalities with a blade

When no one else is armed? Guess again. One guy with a knife can kill a whole lot of unarmed people before he's stopped.

 

[Tommygunn]

Knife wounds can be nastier than bullet wounds in some cases.
Not too many people are well prepared to deal with knife-weilding menaces.

 

[Gungnir]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article603869.ece

Proving once again that a disarmed population is vulnerable. Although I suspect that the UK government is now thinking up new and improved ways of restricting the availability of knives, and protecting the rights of the knife wielders. Rather than giving law abiding citizens (subjects) the rights and tools to defend themselves.

Anyway I'm done with this thread, all it's successfully provided for me is that in the 8 years since I left the UK, is a great deal of irritation once more at the UK government and people there for allowing themselves to get into this situation; and proving that my decision to come to the US was the right one.

 

[Odd Job]

We don't really want to policed on the American basis of "Do as I say or I'll kill you".

Well, here is my perspective, having had dealings with police forces from SA and USA.

No policeman I have dealt with has ever had that attitude. You might be confusing that with a general piece of advice that an armed policeman may give when facing a dangerous suspect "Stop now!" or "Hands out the car!" or "Come out of the shadows onto the balcony where I can see you!"

I've been in some bad situations with some of these police as a ride-along, and they don't have that attitude, even the really grumpy ones

If they did have that attitude in general in the USA, then I may as well claim that bobbies on the beat here in London are forcing me to do what they want, else I get clubbed to death with their batons.

 

[nyggis]

4freedom!

Bottom line is, gun control won't work in USA. Now that England and other European countries are filling up with impoverished people from other countries who are turning to crime, they will see their socialist system of government control to fail them. Another thing you can take into account is that the crime rate in USA is falling in many cities, except those hoarded with minorities, some who are involved in gang culture, whereas the crime rate in European cities are skyrocketing.

This is happening in Sweden as we speak. Our naive left wing politicians have practically opened the borders for immigrants, few questions asked. Compared to our neighbours Norway and Finland (with more controlled immigration) our crime rates are exploding.

The larger cities as Stockholm, Malmö and Gothenburg have immigrant ghettos where the Police, Ambulance and Fire Brigade do not dare to enter. They are attacked by non-european immigrants armed with rocks and molotovs. Instead of sending in the Army, to restore law and order, nothing is done because of the political correctness enforced by media.

Simultaneously Swedish courts punish acts of self defence extra severly to keep civilians passive and wait for the police. (that sometimes never arrives at all) Banning guns in general is not an issue right now, but yearly tightening of the laws regulating ownership and licences are frightening, especially for hand gun shooters.

I am a pessimist when thinking of the European future. Our governments make us more domesticated, passive and illogical for each year. When encountered with aggressive empoverished people without respect for the law or the people things can only go in one direction...

Keep on fighting for your freedom!

/ Erik

 

[Shung]

Erik.. Situation in Switzerland is not far away from yours.

and our justice is just a joke !

not later that this week, we had a trial for 3 young people.

They had cut a man alive, tortured him with salt and alcool on his wound for more than one hour to make him speak about where his money was hidden, and at last, they killed him by opening his belly with a butcher knife so that he couldnt testify against them..

Well, the men and the girl that were 18 and over 20 by the time, risk a maximum sentence of 15 years in jail... (which is a joke for such a crime..)

The last one, who did the torture and the final killing, was 17 and 8 months when it happened... Because he was not 18, he will go to a special place for young criminals for now, and he will be released, TOTALLY FREE, in... *hang on*..... 2010.... Just because that's our law for youngsters ... and his file will be erased. nobody will know what kind of person he is when he will walk free in our streets..

At the same time, a f****ing leftiest is asking for youngsters to be able to vote at the age of 12...

Aren't those people just CRAZY ?

 

[nyggis]

Shung!
I´m truly sorry to hear that. Always seen Schweiz as a haven of common sense in Europe. There used to be a lot of similarities between our two countries before Sweden went socialist crazy in the 1960:ies and 70:ies.

What is the main reason for Switzerlands unfortunate degeneration?

/ Erik

 

[Shung]

Socialists, Greens, exagerate humanists, youngsters thinking that smockin' weed is much more important than serve the country..

Should I go ahead..? i think we are just following your path..

The only thing that can save us, in my mind, is that we still are a semi direct democracy.. we only need people to wake up to change things..

Will they wake up, that's another question.. Sad to say, but criminals and violence could help in that matter..