Universal Clays & .45 ACP

[MEHavey]

It could be claimed that proclaiming published data unsafe might be slanderous.

Don't be ridiculous.
Sierra's own warning was posted --verbatim and as published by them
With good cause --so others might see the exact context of load date being discussed.

*** Sierra has been quite responsible in that regard ***
Note also should be taken taken that Sierra is using Unique, whereas I listed Universal,
While Universal is often quoted as "spheroidal Unique," it's not quite the same.

 

[Ru4real]

A few questions for the 7.0gr Universal / 230gr RN FMJ combination in 45 ACP

1. How far from the case mouth does the bullet travel such that pressure remains within 20% of maximum pressure?
(e.g., from 0 inches to 2 inches with maximum pressure at 1 inch is one guess)

2. When S&W said M25 in 45 ACP is good for +P pressure do they say that based on cylinder strength?

3. Measure the thickness of the 1911 chamber wall and compare it to M25 cylinder wall. Which one is thicker?

4. What is the pressure in the 1911 barrel when the bullet leaves the bore and the barrel unlocks?
(e.g., within 30% of maximum pressure is one answer)

 

[MEHavey]

(Dipping My toe in dangerous waters here....)
I think it's an action/timing restriction w/ the 1911 having a lot of moving parts upon firing. (as you intimate)
A revolver is effectively a fixed-action single shot.




postscript:
QL would indicate the bullet has traveled 2¾" when the pressure finally
drops below 20% of peak; and 5"/1911 muzzle pressure at exit is ~3,200.

Actual measured data would be nice, but it's ball-park.

 

[Walkalong]

While Universal is often quoted as "spheroidal Unique," it's not quite the same.

Correct, it's a bit quicker and less forgiving at the top.

 

[Walkalong]

The old Ramshot v.2 has some Enforcer data for a 230 Gr RN that exceeds the OP's needs, but it won't upload, even in a zip file. The Silhouette data in this one will get him where he wants to go. Not with Universal, but .......

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The old Ramshot v.2 has some Enforcer data for a 230 Gr RN that exceeds the OP's needs, but it won't upload, even in a zip file. The Silhouette data in this one will get him where he wants to go. Not with Universal, but .......

It’s interesting the pdf wouldn’t just open in the browser, I had to download it then open in pdf viewer. Computers are weird.
Ramshot used the Sierra 230gr. for their testing. The iPhone app I have sets the range from 6.1gr. at 710fps to 7.6gr. at 920fps. That’s very different but not too far out of the ordinary for different testing platforms. I like Sierra’s slide bar.

 

[jski]

“All loads listed are safe for all the revolvers listed…”. OP has stated he is loading for a S&W Model 25. And, these are not +P loads. Sierra tested in a Freedom Arms Model 83. Where does Sierra state that the listed loads are 30kpsi? It’s not in the posted snip. And, yes! Always proceed with caution! Could a sworn that’s been stated a few times.
But, the real point is, the OP doesn’t need to enter +P territory to meet his velocity goals; he needs to consider using a different powder-bullet combination.

This is it with empty AR brass inside

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

View attachment 1098456
This is it with empty AR brass inside

Nice! Are those Altamonts?
As I read it, your main point was to verify whether or not the internet consensus that Hodgdons data for Universal is wrong for their .45ACP set. I think between the posts by @Walkalong and myself you can see that each data set will vary quite a bit. While none are really wrong, some are more conservative than others. Also, as was pointed out with International Clays, different countries will have different names for the same product and different testing/data besides. Our responsibility is to start low and work up to what works best in our guns, for our applications, using our own judgment. Hodgdons data is fine. It’s just very conservative. Nothing wrong with that. Sierra’s data is fine. It’s just for their bullets. Ramshots data is fine. It’s just for their powders. The problem is internet lore that says anything less than fire breathing HD loads are “weak”. HTH.

 

[jski]

Nice! Are those Altamonts?
As I read it, your main point was to verify whether or not the internet consensus that Hodgdons data for Universal is wrong for their .45ACP set. I think between the posts by @Walkalong and myself you can see that each data set will vary quite a bit. While none are really wrong, some are more conservative than others. Also, as was pointed out with International Clays, different countries will have different names for the same product and different testing/data besides. Our responsibility is to start low and work up to what works best in our guns, for our applications, using our own judgment. Hodgdons data is fine. It’s just very conservative. Nothing wrong with that. Sierra’s data is fine. It’s just for their bullets. Ramshots data is fine. It’s just for their powders. The problem is internet lore that says anything less than fire breathing HD loads are “weak”. HTH.

My purpose is to work up a nice home defense load for this gun. I just got it as part of an inheritance and hadn’t previously loaded for 45 ACP.

So, I bought some Starline AR brass and started thinking about what to do with it. I have lots of Berry’s 230 gr .45 bullets I’ve used for my .45 Colt which works perfectly for the 45 ACP as well. And with a 3” barrel I’m, of course, looking for a relatively fast burning powder, hence Universal.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

My purpose is to work up a nice home defense load for this gun. I just got it as part of an inheritance and hadn’t previously loaded for 45 ACP.

So, I bought some Starline AR brass and started thinking about what to do with it. I have lots of Berry’s 230 gr .45 bullets I’ve used for my .45 Colt which works perfectly for the 45 ACP as well. And with a 3” barrel I’m, of course, looking for a relatively fast burning powder, hence Universal.

Ah. Well that’s a completely different thing altogether. Are the Berry’s really FMJ or are they plated lead? Are they round nose, flat nose, target hollow points, hexagon hollow points? You are looking for 900fps from a 3” barrel so why bother looking at charges tested and developed in a 5” barrel? You’re loading up a revolver so is automatic loading data really helpful? All points to consider.

For your 3” I recommend you ditch the can and bottle popping plinkers and look at jacketed soft points (like the 240gr Sierra’s, Hornady XTP, Nosler ASP, to name a few) over powders known to work well in short barrel revolvers. The bullet makers will set the velocity requirements and have recommended powders - but Bullseye, Silhouette and Accurate No.7 are good choices and readily available. Who knows, you may even end up finding a load with Universal?

 

[jski]

Ah. Well that’s a completely different thing altogether. Are the Berry’s really FMJ or are they plated lead? Are they round nose, flat nose, target hollow points, hexagon hollow points? You are looking for 900fps from a 3” barrel so why bother looking at charges tested and developed in a 5” barrel? You’re loading up a revolver so is automatic loading data really helpful? All points to consider.

For your 3” I recommend you ditch the can and bottle popping plinkers and look at jacketed soft points (like the 240gr Sierra’s, Hornady XTP, Nosler ASP, to name a few) over powders known to work well in short barrel revolvers. The bullet makers will set the velocity requirements and have recommended powders - but Bullseye, Silhouette and Accurate No.7 are good choices and readily available. Who knows, you may even end up finding a load with Universal?

Plated of course but with few exceptions plated bullets isn’t a bullet option in reloading data. They’re, of course, range ammo bullets but 230 gr. is the “canonical” bullet weight for a 45 ACP.

And I’m not too focused on 900 FPS, just enough velocity to get a HP to expand.

 

[MEHavey]

For 3" / nominal 21,000 psi....
230gr, Speer TMJ 4480
In rough order of velocity irrespective of burn efficiency:

Powder    vel (fps)
Vihtavuori N105     868
Accurate No.7        858
POWER PISTOL    856
Alliant 2400            850
Ramshot Enforcer  848
Alliant HERCO       847
Vihtavuori 3N37     847
Vihtavuori 3N38     847
Vihtavuori N350     846
Alliant UNIQUE     844
Vihtavuori N330     840
Accurate No.9       838
Accurate No.5       838
Longshot               837
BULLSEYE           835
Hodgdon HS-6     834
Winchester WAP  834
Winchester 540    833
True Blue             833
Universal             828

In order of reduced fireball / > 93% burn:

Vihtavuori N330
Hodgdon Universal
Alliant BULLSEYE
Alliant UNIQUE

YMMV, so use what you might have as near the top of the list as practical.

.

 

[jski]

… Who knows, you may even end up finding a load with Universal?

Well, they don’t call it Universal for nothing!

 

[jski]

For 3" / nominal 21,000 psi....
In rough order of velocity irrespective of burn efficiency:

Powder    vel (fps)
Vihtavuori N105     868
Accurate No.7        858
POWER PISTOL    856
Alliant 2400            850
Ramshot Enforcer  848
Alliant HERCO       847
Vihtavuori 3N37     847
Vihtavuori 3N38     847
Vihtavuori N350     846
Alliant UNIQUE     844
Vihtavuori N330     840
Accurate No.9       838
Accurate No.5       838
Longshot               837
BULLSEYE           835
Hodgdon HS-6     834
Winchester WAP  834
Winchester 540    833
True Blue             833
Universal             828

In order of reduced fireball / > 93% burn:

Vihtavuori N330
Hodgdon Universal
Alliant BULLSEYE
Alliant UNIQUE

YMMV, so use what you might have as near the top of the list as practical.

.

868 to 828 isn’t that large of a range.

 

[MEHavey]

As noted, use what'cha got.
Higher on the list is better.
(Incidentally:230gr, Speer TMJ was used & so updated)
Heavier bullets in the 240 range will be slower for the same pressure regime.

For grins, I'll run a 255gr Lyman 454424(pure lead) into water jugs at 900fps using a 3-Screw, and look at expansion.

 

[N555]

I can tell you right now, calibrated QL shows 28,200psi for that 7.0gr Unique load previously posted.
Here to date/time, no one had listed the Sierra caveats that this was exclusively a high-strength revolver load.
The fine print/whole story matters... a lot. Other casual readers downstream might not be able to dig it out sifting through these threads.

...and the OP has already been given the magic ("Universal") formula for a 900-950fps/230gr well under +P/23,000psi


.

Yeah don't do that.
I worked up some 185gr loads to about 7gr of unique and they were fairly hot.

 

[jski]

Yeah don't do that.
I worked up some 185gr loads to about 7gr of unique and they were fairly hot.

Did you use a chronograph? If so, what velocities did you get?

 

[jski]

In order of reduced fireball / > 93% burn:

1. Vihtavuori N330
2. Hodgdon Universal
3. Alliant BULLSEYE
4. Alliant UNIQUE

Looks like Universal does well by this measure!

 

[MEHavey]

...ser justo hasta con el diablo

 

[N555]

Did you use a chronograph? If so, what velocities did you get?

That was probably about 20 years ago, I did chronograph them. If I remember correctly they were nearly supersonic.

 

[jski]

Update from the Starline ballistician regarding their AR brass:

I asked:

With the added thickness to the case head, will the .45 AR brass hold up under .45 Super pressures? Basically, does the thick case head buy me anything as far as pressure levels is concerned?

He replied:

We haven't tested it that high, but I wouldn't be surprised if it held up perfectly fine to those pressures. Obviously anytime you are loading above SAAMI pressures you are doing it at your own risk.

NO, I have no intention of pushing these rounds that hard. Just curious about this brass.

 

[anothernewb]

Never used Universal with a 230. but it drove 185 HP's pretty dang well with 6 and change.
but 900+ with a 230?
Honestly, I think you'd need something a little slower for powder. AA7,Longshot or Power pistol maybe.

I swapped out Universal for BE86 awhile back. Accuracy and velocity were better in my guns. Maybe it could reach that with a 230. maybe not. Never really tried to hot rod a 230.
Always figured if I needed that kind of oomph. I'd convert one of my 1911s to 45 super or 460 Rowland.Or go all the way and get a 454 casull.

 

[AJC1]

Never used Universal with a 230. but it drove 185 HP's pretty dang well with 6 and change.
but 900+ with a 230?
Honestly, I think you'd need something a little slower for powder. AA7,Longshot or Power pistol maybe.

I swapped out Universal for BE86 awhile back. Accuracy and velocity were better in my guns. Maybe it could reach that with a 230. maybe not. Never really tried to hot rod a 230.
Always figured if I needed that kind of oomph. I'd convert one of my 1911s to 45 super or 460 Rowland.Or go all the way and get a 454 casull.

Hot rodding a 45acp is like hot rodding a 45-70. Nothing much to gain but hurt feelings and broken guns.

 

[jski]

Just noticed this, 2 ends of the spectrum:

.45 ACP load for 230 gr FMJ using Universal:


.45 Super load for 230 gr FMJ using Universal:


That’s 0.4 grains of powder separating them with a difference in velocity of 33 FPS.

 

[jski]

The amazing thing is those pressures. They’re remarkably low.

Using: CUP To PSI Calculator
those pressures translate to: 7,566.8 PSI and 11,508.4 PSI. Does that make sense?