V Notch Express Sights - Are They Any Good and How do They Stack up Against Peeps?

[Wyoming762]

I've been looking at the Ruger Guide Gun (in 30-06) for a rifle to stick in a saddle scabbard, keep in the back seat, and just plain get a lot hard use out of. No doubt the Ruger is up to the task, I'm actually more interested in the sights.
For the sake of durability, keeping the rifles weight at 8 pounds, ease of getting in and out of scabbards, and less re-sighting in sessions, I'd like to keep a scope off of it.
That leaves me a couple of choices, use they stock sights (and as far as I've been told its stock Express Sights are of good quality), or put an apeture on it. I'd just like to here, from people who know about the things they're talking about, how these two sight designs stack up.
I've heard lots of good things about peep sights, and lots of criticisms of every iron that isn't a peep, but also that there is number of people who use the V Notch and will stick up for it. I also understand that Elmer Keith liked them for work up close.
I'm not getting this rifle for shooting past 150, so long range accuracy isn't a determining factor.

P.S. I have good eye sight.

 

[adcoch1]

I like both types of sights, the aperture for general and precision work, and v notch for fast work. The v notch let's you keep your peripheral vision in the game, where the peep really gives you really fine focus. YMMV

 

[dfariswheel]

The Express sight was specifically designed for point blank, in your face hunting of large dangerous game in Africa.
It's not a good accuracy sight at much over very close shots.

To use it, you have to align the front sight with the rear sight, then align both on the target.
The advantage of the Express is the alignment of the front and rear is not as critical and is faster then the standard smaller notch type rear sight.
Disadvantages are the large rear sight blocks off a lot of the target and you have to switch focus between the front sight, the rear sight, and the target to insure sight alignment and targeting.

The receiver, aperture, or "peep" sight is good at any range and provides excellent accuracy at any range.
The big advantage of the receiver sight is that you don't attempt to align the front with the rear.
You simply look through the aperture and align the front sight on target.
Your eye will automatically center the front sight in the rear sight.
If the stock fits you correctly, as soon as you shoulder the rifle and your face hits the stock, you should be looking right through the aperture.
Another advantage of the aperture sight is that it works best if you keep both eyes wide open.
The aperture sight also blocks off much less of the target since only the front sight is seen.
This all makes for a very fast sight to use.
Receiver sights can be the Williams and Lyman types that screw to the side of the receiver or a much smaller compact sight that mounts on top of the receiver on the scope mount holes.
Many newer rifles are not drilled and taped for the Williams or Lyman type.
I can't off hand remember the compact top mount aperture sight but is available in brass or blued and has extremely simple adjustments.
It's even more snag resistant then barrel mounted sights, and is a very durable sight.
Hopefully someone will remember the brand.

It might be best to experiment to see what you might prefer.
An easy way to do this is to make experimental sights from cardboard and tape them to a rifle.
For the receiver sight, just bend the cardboard and punch a hole. You can also experiment with hoe sizes.

You can bend cardboard and cut a wide Express type "V" in it and tape to the barrel.
A front sight is easily made with copper wire bent into an "L shape and taped to the front of the barrel.

Then just experiment to see how fast you can get each type on target at various ranges.
If you have a pellet or BB gun or you buy a cheap Daisy at Walmart you can actually shoot at a target to decide what's best for you.

 

[adcoch1]

My receiver top mounted rear peep is a Williams wrgs.

 

[Bart B.]

The big advantage of the receiver sight is that you don't attempt to align the front with the rear. You simply look through the aperture and align the front sight on target.

I disagree. That'll put the bullet close to the point of aim, but not exact. No muscles move anything by themselves to center the front sight in the field of view seen through the rear sight aperture.

Easily seen by putting the rifle in a fixed mount then looking through the peep, moving the eye around then watching the target appear to move about the front sight opposite the eye movement.

For precision, the rifle has to be moved to center the front sight in the center oh the aperture view.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Dfarriswheel, you are thinking about Skinner sights. They are some of the best quality compact peeps out there. XS peep sights are good as well.

I have no knowledge with v notch express sights on a rifle. I do have express sights v notch style sights on my pistol. I love them on my pistol but for me, I feel like i cannot shoot the pistol as far with v notch sights as compared to regular pistols sights. As such, I would expect v notch rifle sights to have a more limited range as compared to peep sights. In the absence of being able to test a v notch sight on a rifle, I would be inclined to go with a peep style sight.

You might call Ruger and talk to them. You might be able to get in touch with someone who tests fires them.

 

[MistWolf]

Aimpoint Micro is the fastest sight I've ever used.

Between aperture & express sights, fastest and most versatile for me is the aperture with large diameter aperture.

A rifle can be set up so express sights line up just as quickly as aperture sights.

Bottom line, both types of sights work and only you can decide which one suits your purposes best.

My preference for fast shooting is the Aimpoint Micro

 

[Tirod]

You might like this: http://www.forgottenweapons.com/perspectives-on-french-rifle-sight-design/

"Express" sights have been around a long time. The problem is the ego of the average male - he always has to have something better than the other guy. To measure it, he comes up with all sorts of contests to prove it.

Since we can't go out and kill a whole bunch of live targets, we choose paper ones, and to make it more difficult, we push the target out further. In reality, it has nothing to do with actual hunting or shooting. Nonetheless we continue to see what we have learned on ranges applied to what we need shooting live targets - and it's not always for the best.

I would suggest that an AR pistol would be faster and more accurate used with a set of express sights than a peep. But, I can't pile up a lot of dead bodies to prove it. So the argument rages on over the internet.

 

[CraigC]

As has been stated, express sights are fast and work best for game that is close and/or moving. A peep with a smaller aperture is going to be much better for fine work but won't be as quick up close. A large aperture or ghost ring will probably be as fast as an express sight but much more precise.

An upside to the express sight is that it can be used as backup to an optic. Peep sights usually cannot.

"Express" sights have been around a long time. The problem is the ego of the average male - he always has to have something better than the other guy. To measure it, he comes up with all sorts of contests to prove it.

Since we can't go out and kill a whole bunch of live targets, we choose paper ones, and to make it more difficult, we push the target out further. In reality, it has nothing to do with actual hunting or shooting. Nonetheless we continue to see what we have learned on ranges applied to what we need shooting live targets - and it's not always for the best.

What are you talking about???

 

[CaptTripps]

I found peep sights to be lacking in dark conditions. Being a saddle/utility rifle, this would be something to take into account.

 

[MistWolf]

Peep sights with large apertures work just fine in dim light

 

[ADKWOODSMAN]

I have an express sight on my Ruger .22 LR 71/2" love it.

 

[dfariswheel]

Dfarriswheel, you are thinking about Skinner sights. They are some of the best quality compact peeps out there

It is the Skinner receiver sight.
These are small, very nice sights.

Also I forgot about the newer Williams receiver sights that mount into scope mount holes.

I would suggest that an AR pistol would be faster and more accurate used with a set of express sights than a peep

Aperture sights really only work well when used with a rifle, pistols work better with open sights.
The aperture needs to be close to the eye.

 

[geologist]

I like the express sights on my BRNO 602.

They shoot well for me.

 

[RevJim]

I have used both. I have made some great shots with a peep, and I have made some fast, closer shots with Express. For simple ruggedness, go with the Express. Horses and trucks can both be hard on rifle sights, ha. A military peep is set up for hard use, i.e. with the protective ears. You can get peeps like that for a hunting rifle but unless you spend a lot of time in the wilderness its not necessary. I keep irons on my Mod 700 Whelen AI as back up to my Leupold QD bases. I had the factory rear replaced with an express sight from NECG. Its pretty rugged. I may never need it, but it could save my hunt. They make a a pretty solid peep that fits in the scope base of your Ruger, have a look at it and see how you feel about it.

 

[iiranger]

Old Jack OConnor wrote that he bought a peep on a rifle, back when glass was scarce and expensive, unscrewed the peep sight disc, put in in a drawer with dozens of others, and went hunting.

POINT: the eye will align the front sight with the strongest light thru the peep. Small holes are great on evenly lighted target ranges. You are better off with a much larger hole out hunting. Really dim light and no non electronic sight is worth a great deal. And as Geo Herter loved to whine, there is always something to get into the hole, the more important the shot the quicker...

Express sights, as said repeatedly, are crude for large, dangerous animals up close. You are basically throwing a slug in the general direction to mess up a charge.. a second, killing shot to follow. !!

The leaf rear sights are all sorts of compromise. The semi buckhorn has the half round to align the front bead in very carefully like the peep. With practice you can "throw" a shot without pulling the bead all the way down like the express.

What suits your inclinations? Some one said the German army issued a hunting rifle, the US issued a target rifle (03 with peep) and the British issued a battle rifle. (My P14 has a peep with huge ears???) Might study the SMLEs. It is a very personal decision. Luck. Happy New Year. Happpy Trails.

 

[Bart B.]

See post 5.

COUNTER POINT: the decades old myth that the eye will align the front sight with the strongest light thru the peep still persists. People shooting the best scores with peep (aperture) rear sights in matches know better.

It's easy to see with the rifle fixed in position and the sights centered on a bullseye then move the aiming eye around to see the bullseye move off center relative to the front sight. If the rifles position the bull center on the front sight, the barrel now points somewhere else.

All types of metallic sights have to be aligned center to each other then centered on the target's point of aim. No "auto centering" by eyes happens. Same sight picture every time. Peep, aperture, square or V notched rear ones; all the same.

 

[jmr40]

That rifle is over 8 lbs without optics. I understand that sometimes folks are just married to an individual rifle and won't accept any other. But from a practical point of view I'd select a lighter rifle, put a 1-4X20 scope on it and rock on. I've tried them all and found conventional optics on 1X to be faster than anything else, especially in low light, and every bit as durable.

You can buy a Winchester EW in 30-06 that is a full pound lighter and comes with a better all weather stock. Mag capacity is 5+1 instead of 4+1 as well. Street price is about the same, probably less. If you just have to have irons and a 20" barrel the sights can be added and the barrel chopped.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/rifles/model-70/model-70-extreme-weather-ss.html

 

[smithman 10]

I think the reality is that shooters worry about centering the front sight in the peep. You have all that space around the post and you can't tell if it is perfectly centered.

So the advice that the eye automatically centers the front sight really means do the best you can and stop worrying about it.

That works for me. With irons I always shoot better with a peep. It's probably mostly a function of a longer sight radius.

I was looking at a rifle yesterday with I swear about 12" of sight relief. It would be quick, for sure, but not real accurate.

 

[Tirod]

I'm talking about the difference between what express sights are made for - to shoot live targets, vs what peep sights are made for - to shoot paper.

Read the link - too many combat weapons are still equipped with National Match sights to enable long range shooting. That is supposed to sort out who is "better" than the other guys. And that contest is usually performed on nice mowed grassy ranges among gentlemen of discernment.

Reality is about shooting the other guy before he shoots you, while he's trying. You have time to be out in the open patiently lining up your sights and adjusting them to the 1/2 MOA for a precision hit? Not. You get a split second window of opportunity and you are praying for a hit. 8's and 9's are a joke in life and death shooting.

My example is pertinent - short range fast action weapons don't use long range precision sights. Express sights dominate close action shooting, peep sights dominate long range shooting. An AR pistol meant for CQB doesn't need the GI sights. They're wrong for it's purpose.

The problem is that human males deliberately bring in the confusion trying to elevate their own ranking in social circumstances - like, internet forums. Which leads to posting three shot groups cherry picked to prove they are a better shot.

For most of those shooting combat arms, personal defense, and hunting offers, it's close range and under 200m. Express sights are all we need - but look again, there's the guy with a 1911 with ambidextrous controls, melt job, and beveled mag well with adjustable precision range sights. A CCW carry piece that statistically will never be used, but if it is, 21 feet is about the max range. Arms length is more common.

We don't really need target sights on our guns. But when it comes to proving it, what to do? Shoot more live targets than the next guy? Can't - not socially acceptable. We don't get to pile up more dead bodies to prove express sights are actually the better pick. No, to be nice about it, we accept ways that only detract from express sights - long range precision shooting. Only that is deemed proper - we can't have savages decide these things, you know.

Target sights on the average gun are for ego, and often detract from the actual purpose of the guns. Hence, the French taking them off and using express sights - a far better choice for use in the trenches of WWI. The 800m peep was a hazard in that regard.

 

[tahoe2]

I use Williams receiver peep sights on my 375 Marlin and 94 Winchester, I can keep both of those at 4" or less @ 100. I also have a Mojo rear sight on a 98 Mauser, the results are the same @ 100;
all of them can be cut in half or better @ 50. I don't have express sights, but do have standard notch and bead sights and the accuracy is more or less the same, depending on the rifle and cartridge.
Practice is the key with such sights, and I find the results to be pretty much the same for me, either way you go, practice is the key, as far as damaging sights from bouncing around in a truck or car,
it's never happened to me. Good Luck !

 

[Jim Watson]

John Taylor said the purpose of the express broad V and front bead sight was to insure "taking the bead, the whole bead, and nothing but the bead."

I find the Mauser "barleycorn" sight hard to register but a friend can make his Swedish Mauser do very well with them.

 

[CraigC]

The problem is that human males deliberately bring in the confusion trying to elevate their own ranking in social circumstances - like, internet forums. Which leads to posting three shot groups cherry picked to prove they are a better shot.

It seems like you are either arguing points that were never made or wandered into the wrong thread. Your rant doesn't seem to be relevant to this discussion.

 

[Casefull]

I say his rant is completely relevant to this conversation. The conversation is really between hunters and paper shooters. For real rifleman years ago the V notch was for long shots. The barrel is plenty to aim with for close in work.

 

[CraigC]

Or people who have used peep sights versus those who have not.

The idea that peep sights are somehow connected to one's ego or machismo makes me feel like I've stepped into The Twilight Zone.