http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_Virginia_Tech.html?source=mypi
So instead of pushing to allow CHLers to carry on campus, he does this.
So instead of pushing to allow CHLers to carry on campus, he does this.
Virginia governor issues executive order closing gun loophole
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CanonNinja
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so, someone with a screw up at home even as minor as throwing a TV remote and convicted of a domestic violence charge, as small as a class C misdemeanor or even a simple "affirmative finding of domestic violence", is or can be considered dangerous and barred from 2A rights, might now be forced into a psych eval?
I don't know about all that since I didn't read the entire article.
But this is just a great example of a knee jerk politician. Instead of pushing for something that would actually do some good, he just makes a response that makes himself good and also gives the illusion that we are safer.
But this is just a great example of a knee jerk politician. Instead of pushing for something that would actually do some good, he just makes a response that makes himself good and also gives the illusion that we are safer.
Leatherneck
Member
I don't have a problem with this IF:
A Judge or Magistrate makes the determination, on recommendation of Doctor, and
Access to the list is restricted to LEO only, and
Individuals can get off the list when better.
The article wasn't clear on these details.
TC
A Judge or Magistrate makes the determination, on recommendation of Doctor, and
Access to the list is restricted to LEO only, and
Individuals can get off the list when better.
The article wasn't clear on these details.
TC
romma
Member
Virginia certainly needs to close the Governer loophole next election.
Prince Yamato
Member
No, it's anyone who is considered dangerous as a result of their mental instability. As in the phrase, "that person is crazy. Like, he'll probably shoot up the school one day, crazy. I'm a doctor and I've evaluated this person and they are NOT of sound mind, crazy."
Look, I don't like gun control measures and I don't like Lautenburg, but mentally ill people just shouldn't have guns, period. Granted, I think this will do little to prevent someone from being able to circumvent the law, because as soon as they are declared sound by a doctor, their record goes poof and said crazy person could still get a gun.
I still think the ONLY way to reduce victimization in cases like the VT shooter is allowing CCW on campus.
Look, I don't like gun control measures and I don't like Lautenburg, but mentally ill people just shouldn't have guns, period. Granted, I think this will do little to prevent someone from being able to circumvent the law, because as soon as they are declared sound by a doctor, their record goes poof and said crazy person could still get a gun.
I still think the ONLY way to reduce victimization in cases like the VT shooter is allowing CCW on campus.
JohnBT
Member
"Look, I don't like gun control measures and I don't like Lautenburg, but mentally ill people just shouldn't have guns, period."
Eating disorders are mental illnesses according to the APA DSM-IV.
So are sexual identity disorders.
So is insomnia.
All legal psychiatric diagnoses along with many others. These are the diagnoses that show up on doctor's reports, hospital reports and insurance paperwork if anything is going to get paid for.
Speaking of guns, IT'S NOT ABOUT MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE. It's about the ones who have been judged, adjudicated by the legal system, to be an imminent danger to themselves or others based on their behavior, not their diagnosis.
John
Eating disorders are mental illnesses according to the APA DSM-IV.
So are sexual identity disorders.
So is insomnia.
All legal psychiatric diagnoses along with many others. These are the diagnoses that show up on doctor's reports, hospital reports and insurance paperwork if anything is going to get paid for.
Speaking of guns, IT'S NOT ABOUT MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE. It's about the ones who have been judged, adjudicated by the legal system, to be an imminent danger to themselves or others based on their behavior, not their diagnosis.
John
The problem, JohnBT, is that there is no stopping the government from just eventually outright banning all mentally ill people are people considered to be mentally ill.
Instead of putting so much focus on deciding who cannot have firearms using a unconstitutional database will can and will be abused, we need to focus on allowing the good guys to pack in as many places as possible, such as college campii.
Instead of putting so much focus on deciding who cannot have firearms using a unconstitutional database will can and will be abused, we need to focus on allowing the good guys to pack in as many places as possible, such as college campii.
JohnBT
Member
That's where we disagree. You believe that there is no stopping government.
Do you really believe the federal government could somehow manage to include on their prohibited list all people being treated for insomnia. It's a diagnosis. Eating disorders? They're diagnoses in the DSM-IV too.
I'm not that paranoid. It might take a fight if they went too far, but that's our system of checks and balances.
_________
"Look, I don't like gun control measures and I don't like Lautenburg, but mentally ill people just shouldn't have guns, period."
Do you mean the mentally ill person having hallucinations, paranoia maybe, and completely out of touch with reality (time, place, etc)? Or do you mean every single person with any type of diagnosis out of the APA's DSM-IV? You know, like insomnia or sexual dysfunction.
The present system is based on behavior, or threatened behavior, and not a diagnosis.
_________
I thought people were enlightened on mental illness. I suppose it's just because of my work environment that I think that we've moved into an enlightened 21st century.
John
Do you really believe the federal government could somehow manage to include on their prohibited list all people being treated for insomnia. It's a diagnosis. Eating disorders? They're diagnoses in the DSM-IV too.
I'm not that paranoid. It might take a fight if they went too far, but that's our system of checks and balances.
_________
"Look, I don't like gun control measures and I don't like Lautenburg, but mentally ill people just shouldn't have guns, period."
Do you mean the mentally ill person having hallucinations, paranoia maybe, and completely out of touch with reality (time, place, etc)? Or do you mean every single person with any type of diagnosis out of the APA's DSM-IV? You know, like insomnia or sexual dysfunction.
The present system is based on behavior, or threatened behavior, and not a diagnosis.
_________
I thought people were enlightened on mental illness. I suppose it's just because of my work environment that I think that we've moved into an enlightened 21st century.
John
HonorsDaddy
Member
JohnBT...
When the 1968 GCA was being debated, people also said "Felonies are only violent crimes. They're not going to use this law to take away your right to ever own a gun just because you made a mistake on your taxes".
Im sure people who got caught "recycling some beer" in public never thought they'd be forever considered sex offenders either.
When the first "no smoking" laws were passed, a lot of people said that no one was going to make it illegal to smoke in a bar, or your apartment.
Now that you have 3 crystal clear real-world examples of the slippery slope at work, are you willing to consider that maybe, just MAYBE, this law MIGHT be misinterpreted to disarm a much larger portion of the population than anyone considered?
BTW - you DID notice how well the laws preventing criminals from obtaining guns has been working, havent you?
Mark my words - this law will do nothing except prevent people who should NOT be affected by it from getting a gun.
When the 1968 GCA was being debated, people also said "Felonies are only violent crimes. They're not going to use this law to take away your right to ever own a gun just because you made a mistake on your taxes".
Im sure people who got caught "recycling some beer" in public never thought they'd be forever considered sex offenders either.
When the first "no smoking" laws were passed, a lot of people said that no one was going to make it illegal to smoke in a bar, or your apartment.
Now that you have 3 crystal clear real-world examples of the slippery slope at work, are you willing to consider that maybe, just MAYBE, this law MIGHT be misinterpreted to disarm a much larger portion of the population than anyone considered?
BTW - you DID notice how well the laws preventing criminals from obtaining guns has been working, havent you?
Mark my words - this law will do nothing except prevent people who should NOT be affected by it from getting a gun.
denfoote
Member
Hitler used mental health laws to disarm the Jews.
Any power concerning mental health, placed in the hands of government, will be used to disarm and enslave the people!!
Here is what started it in Deutschland.
http://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/holocaust/laws.htm
Any power concerning mental health, placed in the hands of government, will be used to disarm and enslave the people!!
Here is what started it in Deutschland.
http://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/holocaust/laws.htm
JohnBT
Member
"Hitler used mental health laws to disarm the Jews."
First rule of the Internet: Threads are over when Hitler or Nazis are mentioned.
Meanwhile, those 3 so-called crystal clear examples are nothing but examples of our system of checks and balances at work. Life is an ongoing battle to right wrongs.
As far as the '68 GCA goes, right off the top of my head it included drug offenses and those aren't "violent", so there goes your argument that "people also said..."
John
First rule of the Internet: Threads are over when Hitler or Nazis are mentioned.
Meanwhile, those 3 so-called crystal clear examples are nothing but examples of our system of checks and balances at work. Life is an ongoing battle to right wrongs.
As far as the '68 GCA goes, right off the top of my head it included drug offenses and those aren't "violent", so there goes your argument that "people also said..."
John
MudPuppy
Member
Hell, you got to be insane to want a gun, right?
I don't want crazy nutjobs running around with guns either, but I can protect myself better against Mr. Crazy than I can against Uncle Sam.
I don't want crazy nutjobs running around with guns either, but I can protect myself better against Mr. Crazy than I can against Uncle Sam.
Zundfolge
Member
Godwin made an exception for gun control arguments
John, your blind faith in government concerns me.
If you read any of the literature written by mental health professionals about "workplace violence" you'll see that time and time again, they list among the "signs of a potentially violent person"; "an interest in firearms or other weapons".
So to many mental health professionals, posting in these forums is a sign that one suffers from a mental illness and is a danger to themselves or others.
Add to that the number of virulently anti-gun/anti-2A activist judges out there and you have with this executive order the ingredients to rob many innocent Virginians of their God given right to keep and bear arms, and for no gain to society at all.
Virginia has a well defined series of steps that must be taken to have anyone labeled as a danger.
Someone has to file a complaint, a judge has to review it, then the judge orders an evaluation, and then a decision is made by th court.
The person is allowed to have representation at the hearing.
The 'loophole' that Cho slipped through was that involuntary commitment was required.
Cho was ordered for an evaluation, but the determination was that outpatient treatment was acceptable. Thus no report of an involuntary commitment.
Someone has to file a complaint, a judge has to review it, then the judge orders an evaluation, and then a decision is made by th court.
The person is allowed to have representation at the hearing.
The 'loophole' that Cho slipped through was that involuntary commitment was required.
Cho was ordered for an evaluation, but the determination was that outpatient treatment was acceptable. Thus no report of an involuntary commitment.
kmrcstintn
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- Jan 5, 2006
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where does he think he is...Britian?!? any small step to start disarming the public like this crap will escalate into more and more BS and then we end up completely disarmed like in Britian and then violent crime rises sharply...then the policing authorities are 'overwhelmed' and can't deal with the problem...then the a-holes in charge who did this are 'dumbfounded' and 'can't understand what happened' especially when they took all the steps and placed all the bans in place...jackasses!
RealGun
Member
I didn't have to read the linked article very far into it to find the hitch. One will be on the database whether or not they were committed, no exception for outpatient counsel and release. It would have indeed snagged Cho. I believe it still has to be involuntary, so someone rational and savvy enough to agree to a counseling session and maybe a prescription, just cooperating, passes right through.
The Unknown User
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- Apr 28, 2007
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- 712
I like how "mental disorder" is never defined. I have a mental disorder. I don't sleep well. Uh oh, I'm really dangerous, huh?
A licensed psychologist should be in charge of deciding what disorders put someone at risk to use a firearm maliciously. This means there needs to be a definitive ruling from the APA on which disorders (according to the DSM-IV) are disorders that put one at risk.
The governor did the right thing by doing what he did.
A licensed psychologist should be in charge of deciding what disorders put someone at risk to use a firearm maliciously. This means there needs to be a definitive ruling from the APA on which disorders (according to the DSM-IV) are disorders that put one at risk.
The governor did the right thing by doing what he did.
Prince Yamato
Member
Before everyone overreacts, I honestly believe the law is just going to go after the sociopaths. Yeah, there's a lot of things that COULD be classified as a mental disorder. On the other hand, we could spin this in a positive manner and say that this law and public safety would be strengthened by the added allowance of CCW on school property.
"I like how "mental disorder" is never defined. "
This is were medicine meets law.
"Insanity" for legal and medical is very different also.
If the law attempted to define exact mental illnesses that disqualify it would be to easy to weasel out by not having on of the 'defined' illnesses.
"Mental disorder" has a long history in Virginia law as a descriptive phrase.
"A licensed psychologist should be in charge of deciding what disorders put someone at risk to use a firearm maliciously. "
I would prefer an actual MD, but either way the law already defines who does the patient examination.
This is were medicine meets law.
"Insanity" for legal and medical is very different also.
If the law attempted to define exact mental illnesses that disqualify it would be to easy to weasel out by not having on of the 'defined' illnesses.
"Mental disorder" has a long history in Virginia law as a descriptive phrase.
"A licensed psychologist should be in charge of deciding what disorders put someone at risk to use a firearm maliciously. "
I would prefer an actual MD, but either way the law already defines who does the patient examination.
Well Regulated
Member
Mental Illness under Virginia Law
§ 37.2-100. Definitions.
"Mental illness" means a disorder of thought, mood, emotion, perception, or orientation that significantly impairs judgment, behavior, capacity to recognize reality, or ability to address basic life necessities and requires care and treatment for the health, safety, or recovery of the individual or for the safety of others.
Governor Tim Kaine is a practicing Catholic and therefore believes in transubstantiation, the belief that the communion bread and wine actually become the body and blood of chirst. Hocus Corpus, poof! Tim Kaine is mentally ill as he has either a disorder of perception or lacks the capacity to recognize reality.
That and other beliefs would be deemed a mental illness under the law. Time to start getting stakes ready for the burning of witches.
Global Warming is a Hoax
§ 37.2-100. Definitions.
"Mental illness" means a disorder of thought, mood, emotion, perception, or orientation that significantly impairs judgment, behavior, capacity to recognize reality, or ability to address basic life necessities and requires care and treatment for the health, safety, or recovery of the individual or for the safety of others.
Governor Tim Kaine is a practicing Catholic and therefore believes in transubstantiation, the belief that the communion bread and wine actually become the body and blood of chirst. Hocus Corpus, poof! Tim Kaine is mentally ill as he has either a disorder of perception or lacks the capacity to recognize reality.
That and other beliefs would be deemed a mental illness under the law. Time to start getting stakes ready for the burning of witches.
Global Warming is a Hoax
gyp_c2
Member
...terrible...
...
...
You have got to be joking...
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