We should take our gloves off

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Axctal

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The anti's are using all tactics they can imagine.
Example - they claim something (you don't need more than 10 rnds ... etc)
And they are REPEATING this over and over and over ...
untill people start biting into it. (" ... everyone knows that ... ")
Even if what they claim is not true or a blatant LIE or in the
best case somewhat questionable and debatable - they DO NOT CARE.
As a result we are risking to be "preaching to the choir" !
Also their claims somtimes BLAME rights-activists.
("gun nuts want allow drunken students to bring guns to a kindergarten!")

etc, ad noseum


We should do similar and all what we can.
Examples:

(debatable claim + blame):
" Gun-free school policy HELPED THE MURDERER
School officials SHOULD BE RESPONSIBLE !!! "
-or- "no school official who helped to murder 32 people were responsible"

" <anti-gun-someone's-name> is facilitating future mass-murders "

etc.


The whole idea is to let THEM be on excusing side and blabber something
"...i didn't do anything ... how could this be my fault ... i am only enforcing the rules ..." e.t.c.


Pictures:
Jewish jellow star from nazi germany in front of conc.camp
with text: They were disarmed "for public safety"
American flag with M16-or what-not with text:
Second amendment is NOT about sporting!

-or-
picture of "devil himself" (horns, etc.) on top
Then on line below pics of Hitler, Stalin, Mao
Then below bunch of little pics of senators who is anti-rights.
(Kinda like a Kommunist party picture roster - O.Volk knows what I am talking about:))
And a text: They have same agenda, they are using same methods.
Are they from the same party?


We should push agenda that 2A was built in to RESIST
the very own government and thus government
has NO JURISDICTION over 2A and the BoR as a whole
2A talking about regulating militia and not your firearms
And thus all weapons-restrisctions are null and void.

If we stick to it, push it into the masses and repeat it many times, it will work


Remember, people are like to fell free and blame others
So point fingers in right direction : officials who enact restriction laws,
schools officials - you name it.

Our advantage - our messages make sense
 
Axctal:
If I may make a suggestion, you need to relax.

To mimic the hysteria of the antis would do us no good at all.
What we do, and what works best, is calm, rational, literate and understandable argument.

Our advantage is that the antis use lies and hysteria, which makes their arguments easy to defeat.
 
If standard capacity magazines (10, 12, 13, 16 rd... whatever the pistol was designed to take) and hollow point bullets are only good for ONE thing....
I guess the police really are roving death squads! Why else would they be issued this stuff, in addition to fully automatic weapons, armored vehicles, and body armor.
After all... the stuff is designed for killing large numbers of people.
 
Fella's;

Axctal has a valid point. When you allow your foe to define the terms, make the rules of engagement, and control the information outlets, you have lost the fight.

We certainly do not need to "scream and shout and leap about", but we should be paying far more attention to our own offensive dialog. It's not wrong to put the propogandists on the defensive. They should be confronted and made to bear witness to their own lies. Our continuing problem is finding a media outlet that mainstream America will listen to. The major market media is firmly in the hands of the enemy.

900F
 
The number 1 tool of the anti side is lies. The number 2 tool is illogical thinking. I am here because I will be party to neither.
 
I agree that sometimes, one must fight fire with fire. Sometimes, it seems like this is the case with gun rights.

However, we must maintain our dignity to avoid becoming the nuts as which they portray us.
 
As they say if you like fighting in the mud, and your opponent likes eye-gouging you'll end up eye-gouging in the mud.

Fight we must. Facts and truth are a much better weapon in the long run, just don't let mentions of the anti's BS slide by unchallenged anywhere you encounter it.

OTOH we can always say since the Government ain't got the cajones to do anything about 12 million illegal aliens, what could they do if the anti's get their wet dream and ban them all with no grandfathering and suddenly there are 70+ million illegal gun owners. Iraq proves all the resistance would need to do is kill one month's worth of motor vehicle fatalities in four or five years to have the Democrats ready to surrender. Maybe we need a million gun march :)

--wally.
 
He is right that the anti's are usually allowed to define the terms of the debate, leaving gunnies on the defensive all the time. Nobody ever won a war on the defensive. One must attack in order to actually win.

Taking the initiative away from these clowns would certainly help - after the VT massacre, we knew the "usual suspects" would dance in the blood of those innocents before the bodies were cool. Thousands of gunnies IMMEDIATELY spread the word about the foolishness of "gun free zones" and proactively bombarded the useless weasels in Congress with emails against new gun control. - all several DAYS before the NRA even had any comment.

The grassroots pre-emptive strike helped defuse the situation before it got out of hand. The NRA was content to let the anti's rule the airwaves and stir up more anti-gun hysteria.
 
Well it's the old question, they are playing a dirty game must we join to defend ourselves or would we only degrade us to their level.
I personally think an aggressive and determined style of promoting guns is needed but we needn't tell lies or exaggerate, reality is clear enough.
I think short catchy slogans are the best way to inform the masses. "When you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns." is a good example, for others see the memes thread.
Another effective way of promoting guns is training other people in how to use a firearm. Take your friends to the shooting range, if someone has no relation to guns he won't care about restrictions, even if he is not an anti-gun folk.
 
The biggest problem I see is that people think we are gun nuts. Owning a gun, in some people's eyes, is insane. So we hide it, out of fear of being turned in because of a MySpace page, or losing your job for talking about guns at work. The left has made honest gun owners into villians, and we have gone into hiding.

The best thing we could do is have every gun owner stand up and say we aren't going to take it anymore. Make it known that we enjoy shooting, and we will not let them take away our rights anymore. Stop being afraid, and come out of hiding.
 
I definitely wouldn't want to roll in the mud with the pigs.

Remember, the general perception is on their side. 60% of the population doesn't understand guns and think they're scary. Last I checked, that's a majority. Fortunately, only a tiny sliver thinks about guns enough to make it a matter to vote on. They need to be exposed to two things:
- Gun owners who are respectable, honest, calm and cool-headed. People they feel they can trust and are comfortable being around.
-A minimal amount of gun-related anything in the media (they more often they see the word 'gun' the more they'll think about it in the voting booth, even if it's generally GOOD gun news. Psychology has shown we tend to ignore news that contradicts our views and remember news that supports it, so no news is good news.)

If they see anti-gunners yelling at an empty parking lot, they'll move on and forget it. If they see anyone yelling back, it becomes a controversy, attracts attention, and they'll think guns are a problem that need to be addressed, even if the gunner 'won' the argument!

So keep it cool, keep it quiet and just make yourself respectable. Owning a gun isn't a dirty secret, but it's not something we want to especially advertise either. Expose them to it very gradually or you'll make more enemies than you beat.
 
If we really want to win, we need IDPA shown weekly on ESPN. :evil:


I mean......good grief...people actually watch cars go around in circles for hours.
 
By doing such a thing, we would be lowering ourselves to the bottom rung tactics that would simply fuel the fire of every anti who wants to keep the flames high.

Just look at any debate. Who is taken more seriously, the one yelling and screaming, raising holy hell, slinging mud in every direction, or the one who calmly and clearly states their opinions, facts and positions?
 
Unremarkable

We want gun ownership to be unremarkable.

Commonplace and unremarkable.

  • Dude. You don't own a gun? Man, you know what Freud said about that, right?
  • You're unarmed? What, you have a policeman of your own?
  • I'd like to, dude, but I can't. My wife wants to go to the range Saturday and she wants the guns to be clean. Go figure.
  • So, you want to come with us? We're going shooting this weekend with some guys from the sheriff's office.
  • So, like, we were shopping for fishing stuff and, wouldn't you know it, the wife sees this new rifle and she just had to have it. Women! What can you do?
Commonplace.

Unremarkable.

Everywhere.

All the time.
 
But we MUST take on offensive.

If we always defend - we have two outcomes of "battles":
we stand ground -or- we loose

If we take on offensive - we "step forward" -or- stand ground.
 
Our advantage is that the antis use lies and hysteria, which makes their arguments easy to defeat.
Click to expand...

Exactly. If you go to the Brady Campaign blog you will see that we gun owners OWN their comments section. The few antis that have come there to post have fallen to reason, facts and logic not to similar emotional rants and ad hominem attacks.

In fact, the only real persistent anti-gunner that posts their on a regular bases is this an emotionally unstable girl named Kelli. She posts absurd statements as if they are facts then when asked to provide sources or any kind of proof for her statements she starts complaining that she is being harassed and throws out ad hominem attacks. All us pro-gunners continue to call her on her nonsense (*see example below) and she continues to have emotional break down after break down. It really is quite telling to fence sitters that go there without their mind already up just looking for some gun related facts.


* Example of Kelli's nonsense (From "Mandating Guns" thread):

http://www.bradycampaign.org/blog/2007/01/24/mandating-guns/

Kelli’s Posts: 43, 69 (response to post 66), 71, 73
Posts that disprove Kelli’s original post: 50, 54, 55, 56, 64, 65, 66, 68

Kelli says in post #43 (as if it is supposed to be common knowledge) the founding fathers, in particular James Madison, said the 2nd Amendment was a collective right for the national guard. This was disproved by numerous quotes from the Federalist papers and legal court rulings all showing the 2nd is and has always been an individual right of the people and it is the people that make up the militia.

Her response (in post #69) to this was
Just pls. remember, that knowledge isn’t always the same as insight, into an issue. There’s a great deal more at stake, in the area of gun control, than simply a debate over the interpretation of the author(s) of the 2nd Amendment.
Click to expand...

Also, in post #47 of the same thread Kelli says this of a police officer that posted on the thread (post #34) to say that he advises violent crime victims to consider arming themselves because police cannot possibly be everywhere at once to protect them

But I must say, the police officer who claims (above), that he actually encourages people to possess guns ~ because he can’t assure their safety ~ well … that’s unbelievable (and I would add, very wrong for him to do). I hope his superior sees what he wrote above, and fires him. I find it very difficult to believe also, that it’s a universally-held belief in the police depts. across this country to encourage citizens to take up arms. Baloney! Most I’ve met as a former city police beat reporter (in Chicago) want to see violent crimes down … not up. And, the PRESENCE of weaponry contributes to an increase in violence ~ not the other way around. If you missed this basic fact in police academy training, then go back & learn.
Click to expand...

And yes, she does seem to be fit for a straight jacket.
 
But we MUST take on offensive.

If we always defend - we have two outcomes of "battles":
we stand ground -or- we loose

If we take on offensive - we "step forward" -or- stand ground.
Click to expand...
Axctal:
We ARE taking the offensive.

We are taking the 'battle' to our representatives in record numbers.
We are talking to people, explaining the truth about the Second Amendment, firearm ownership and self-defense.
We are countering the antis lies where ever we find them; even in the media that has it's own anti agenda.

Take a look around. We are fighting in countless ways...and we are slowly gaining ground. And that's how it has to be done...one bit at a time.

The debate over whether citizens should be armed has been going on for over 2,000 years.
It's not going to be resolved next week.

Don't let impatience tempt you to the dark side of the antis methods.
We can and will win this fight while keeping our honor.
 
Vote

For DR. RON PAUL.....He won the MSNBC poll. He scares them and I like it. That's how we fix this mess. :cool:
 
I agree "no need to roll with the pigs"

BUT there is no reason we should not get into the educational mode.

Point out that 'assult' weapons are NOT used by criminals-
Point out how much safer the country is because of CCW-and could be better except for CEZs.

May have trouble getting people to believe it because of the repeated, repeated. repeated BS from TV news-newspapers.

Not too late to start.
 
Agreed. We shouldn't be eye-gouge fighting in the mud with pigs...



However, every once in a while, ya do get sorely tempted to install the Armor-Plate Gloves over the Titanium Fists.......


And what was that line from maybe H.L Mencken...Something about every normal man sometimes considers spitting on his hands, raising the black flag, and start slitting throats
 
We have to change us first.

While I do agree that we need to do more and be more aggressive in our actions, flying off the handle and ranting and attacking will not do us any good. If we want to change others we must first change our selves. For instance, every time a pro gun person says “high capacity” for a magazine that a gun was designed to function with, we are buying into the anti BS weather we know it or not. We must change first. Remember

Standard Capacity… not “high capacity”
Rifle… not “Assault Rifle or weapon”
Magazine… not “clip” (unless it is a clip)
Target Rifle, Accurized Rifle, Competition Rifle… NOT “sniper rifle”

This may sound dumb, but we must control language if we wish to control ideas.


Think about it.
 
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