Weapons Shipping For Refinishing?

[Birddog1911]

Okay, had to come to those far more knowledgable than me.

A gentleman in another state is wanting to have me finish some pistols for him. I told him that I'd be glad to do it, but that the transfer fees and shipping costs might be prohibitive. He said that he had talked to the ATF, and they told him that there would not have to be any FFL transfers due to the fact that it would be a refinish/gunsmith type work.

If true, that would be very good news for me. I haven't done any out of state jobs because I thought I would have to use an FFL for transfers. So what is the truth? Can he just overnight the handguns to me, and then when I'm finished, do the same back to him? Are the laws the same for rifles and shotguns as they are for handguns?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Depends on if you have an FFL or not.

If you have an FFL, he can ship the handguns directly to you, via FEDEX or UPS and you can return ship the guns directly to him via FEDEX or UPS.

If you do not have an FFL, it is illegal for you to receive a shipment of the guns from him. The handguns would have to go to an FFL in your state who would transfer them to you and then you would have to return them to an FFL in his state who would transfer them back to him.

This is because you are residents of different states and Federal laws apply, specifically 18 USC 922 (a)(3). Notice there is no "loaning" exception in 18 USC 922 (a)(3).

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,

except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and

(C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

If you were residents of the same state, only state law would apply and it probably would not be a problem.

The answer the ATF gave him was probably under the assumption that you were a Federally licensed gunsmith.

 

[Birddog1911]

See, his understanding, per talking to an ATF agent, is that since I'm only working on the firearm, and not possessing it, it would not fall under this. I wouldn't be purchasing it, just working on it, and returning. Do all gunsmiths require an FFL, then?

 

[brboyer]

See, his understanding, per talking to an ATF agent, is that since I'm only working on the firearm, and not possessing it, it would not fall under this. I wouldn't be purchasing it, just working on it, and returning. Do all gunsmiths require an FFL, then?

For refinishing, no: Unless they want to be able to receive firearms from folks in another state.

PS. How can you work on a firearm without possessing it?

Purchase: To exchange money or other valuable consideration for a firearm.
Possess: To touch or hold, or possibly even be in the same room as the firearm.
Transfer: The legal process required for a person (non FFL) in one state to take possession of a firearm from a person (non FFL) in another state. (as it applies to your situation)

 

[Birddog1911]

Gotcha, thanks.

 

[NavyLCDR]

And also, if he were to attempt to ship the handguns to you, he would be required by Federal law to notify the carrier of the shipment of handguns going out of state to a non-FFL in writing. At that point the carrier would refuse the shipment anyway - so in practical terms, not only being illegal, it would be very difficult to do.

 

[dogtown tom]

Birddog1911 See, his understanding, per talking to an ATF agent, is that since I'm only working on the firearm, and not possessing it, it would not fall under this. I wouldn't be purchasing it, just working on it, and returning. Do all gunsmiths require an FFL, then?

1. If you are "only working on it"....you are gunsmithing.
2. If you have it....you are in possession.
3. Refinishing or gunsmithing requires a FFL.http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html
4. If you do not hold an FFL you are in violation of Federal law by refinishing that guy's firearm.
5. Even 01FFL's (dealers) are limited in how they may refinish firearms. "Camoflaging" is okay, but other methods may require an 07FFL (manufacturer).
6. NEVER, EVER....trust the verbal opinion of ATF. It is worth the paper it is written on. I have had other FFL's cite a supposed opinion of an ATF Industry Operation Investigator.....when I called him (the ATF IOI) he said that the other FFL left out information that would have caused him to give a different answer. Even written ATF opinions are subject to change.

NavyLT: Depends on if you have an FFL or not.

If you have an FFL, he can ship the handguns directly to you, via FEDEX or UPS and you can return ship the guns directly to him via FEDEX or UPS.

If you do not have an FFL, it is illegal for you to receive a shipment of the guns from him. The handguns would have to go to an FFL in your state who would transfer them to you and then you would have to return them to an FFL in his state who would transfer them back to him.

If he does not have an FFL, he needs to get one. Refinishing firearms as a business activity requires an FFL.

 

[DeepSouth]

Isn't this what the ATF recently changed their mind on?


From NRA web site.

BATFE Revises Policies on Firearms "Transfers"

Thursday, June 03, 2010

In a recent ruling regarding the “transfer” of firearms, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATFE) has reversed policies that have been in place for more than 40 years.
In the ruling, BATFE declared that a temporary shipment of a firearm by a federal firearms licensee to a non-employee for business reasons (such as a manufacturer's shipment to a gun writer or engineering consultant for a technical evaluation), will now be considered a “transfer” and require completion of a Form 4473 and background check.

This reverses a ruling issued in 1969, right after the passage of the Gun Control Act, although BATFE provided no explanation of the need for the change. According to the National Shooting Sports Foundation, BATFE hasn’t been able to name a single case in which a gun temporarily shipped under the old rule has been used in crime.

The short-term impact may be limited, because many major manufacturers already require firearms sent to non-employees to go through the transfer process. But manufacturers who didn’t follow that practice will now have to ship guns to licensed dealers to complete these “transfers.”

Furthermore, the ruling only applies to temporary shipments by federal firearms licensees to carry out those licensees' business operations. Given that limitation, the new ruling won't affect private individuals who ship guns to themselves when traveling to shoot or hunt, or who ship firearms to a manufacturer or gunsmith for repair or customization.

However, this new ruling may have broader implications for future issues. For example, some have suggested that although the ruling doesn’t relate directly to rental of guns for use on commercial shooting ranges, its reasoning might require rentals to be treated as “transfers” subject to recordkeeping and background check requirements.

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=5866

 

[dogtown tom]

DeepSouth Isn't this what the ATF recently changed their mind on?


From NRA web site.

Quote:
BATFE Revises Policies on Firearms "Transfers"

Thursday, June 03, 2010

In a recent ruling regarding the “transfer” of firearms....

Furthermore, the ruling only applies to temporary shipments by federal firearms licensees to carry out those licensees' business operations. Given that limitation, the new ruling won't affect private individuals who ship guns to themselves when traveling to shoot or hunt, or who ship firearms to a manufacturer or gunsmith for repair or customization....

Nope.







.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

4. If you do not hold an FFL you are in violation of Federal law by refinishing that guy's firearm.

He is only in violation if he accepts monetary compensation for the,work not the actual performance of the work.

Refinishing firearms as a business activity requires an FFL

Amen! That is where the Feds come in.

 

[dogtown tom]

jimmyraythomason: He is only in violation if he accepts monetary compensation for the,work not the actual performance of the work.

That is a HUGE assumption. Relying on "acceptance of monetary compensation" is not mentioned in ANY Federal law. The OP wrote that "I haven't done any out of state jobs", which leads one to believe that he has done this type of work on in state firearms before. If he is doing this refinishing as a regular course of business he is engaged in the business of gunsmithing.

BTW- ATF doesn't care how much I charge for transfers or how much profit my little firearms business makes. The theory that one must accept compensation (or make a profit) for Federal law to apply just doesn't float.

Q: Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?
Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.
[27 CFR 478.11]

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I was referring to your item #4 as a stand alone statement and not taking it in the context of the thread. He must have an FFL to be in the business of refinishing firearms. No assumption is being made. Being "in the business" IS accepting monetary compensation for work performed.

 

[Birddog1911]

Perhaps I should clarify that I'm not "in the business" so to speak. I do it as a hobby. I intend though to get my FFL in the future so that I might pursue a business venture.

 

[evan price]

Birddog, your tag line solicits business. Since you are actively seeking business, you are a gunsmith not a hobbyist. Silly, but the Feds don't joke around.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Perhaps I should clarify that I'm not "in the business" so to speak. I do it as a hobby. I intend though to get my FFL in the future so that I might pursue a business venture.

Ummmm, sorry, no. You advertise (see your own tag line), and accept money for your work.

You may call it anything you like ... but legally it's a business, a gun related business, and you need an FFL to engage in it.