Well I gone and did it now. VZ2008

[Eb1]

Coming from a HP background, and shooting AR15 for some time. I was devastated when I had to sell my AR15. I knew one day that I would be replacing it though.

I had been saving and saving. I wanted a nice 4150 steel 1:7 twist AR. Probably a mid-length gas 16" barrel with a 6 pos stock. CMMG had just the one I wanted, but I was probably going to get another 20" WOA and shoot HP again.
Wait. Then the wife got pregnant with our second, I bought a Harley, and well I started to add things like new rims to the Harley. I still had money put back for the AR15 though.
Then all of a sudden something caught my eye, and logic kicked in. I do not have time to shoot HP with two small children, and the time I do have to myself I spend on the motorcycle riding the back roads, but I still wanted that zombie gun.

I found something that I think fits the bill. I have never really liked the accuracy of the AK47. If I wanted to shoot a .22 cal bullet I would by an AR15 so the AK74 is out, but I saw a gun that I just had to have. I bought a VZ2008 which is a VZ58 clone. A striker style, with a folding stock that looks the part of the AK.
I am really new to the ammo. I have never owned a 7.62x39 rifle. I have read some ballistics, and even commented on it, but now I know that those comments were very opinionated as I find myself doing research for what Ammunition I should be buying for my new rifle.

Back to the new rifle. The gun is in great shape. Flawless actually. Everything works, lines up, and just feels good. I guess I will know when I go out and shoot it this weekend for the first time.
I choose this rifle because I wanted reliability, and from what I read this gun has it. I wanted to shoot heavy bullets. This gun does that also. I do not care at this point that it is not a target rifle. I have some nice bolt guns for that, and my Marlin Model 60 is a tack driver on the cheap as well. This is a home protection gun, and a grab and go out on the 4-wheeler rifle.

The purchase was a good one. Two mags, a bag for the mags which holds 4, the gun, and ammo. All local for the price of what it would cost me to mail order one.

Now what ammo should I pursue for this gun? I want something that is consistent, and will yaw or expand. Can you AK or 7.62x39 guys point me in the right direction?

Thanks.

 

[nalioth]

Now what ammo should I pursue for this gun? I want something that is consistent <snip>. Can you AK or 7.62x39 guys point me in the right direction?

Sure:

Reloading Equipment - Amazon

The vast majority of commercially available 7.62x39 is produced in former military factories to military specs. Basically, it's designed to go *bang*.

If you want consistency, you'll probably want to reload your own, although I believe there is one US manufacturer whose 7.62x39 is a bit more consistent (and more expensive) than the imported stuff.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

From what I recall, the .22 caliber bullets yaw better than the .30 cals... Other than that, I'd try Wolf, TulAmmo, and various others. I know there are American brands in x39, but can't think of the names. Hope you enjoy your new rifle, the VZ58/2008 is pretty hideous to me, but people love them. I'm more of an AK74 guy so, to each his own.

Have fun, come back with a range report and pictures, or it didn't happen

 

[rocinante]

good choice and I believe you will like it. I got 2 folders and they should be great for 4 wheeler.

join the vz58 forum

http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?board=67.0

 

[Eb1]

I'll do that, rocinante.

I already have reloading setup, and will be selling a mess load of .223 match bullets here in the next few days.

 

[armoredman]

I have a vz-58, and it loves the Hornady 123gr soft point over 24 grains of AA# 1680. It will shoot cast, and does well with the NOE 129grain cast gas check, but does leave some leading in the gas block. Unfortunately I couldn't get it to run well with the nice new Berry's plated bullet in this caliber.
Magazines are available cheap as well as a BUNCH of nice aftermarket stuff at Czechpoint USA.

 

[Maverick223]

join the vz58 Club

There; I fixed it for ya.

As far as ammo, the old 8M3 Ulyanovsk "Sapsan" offers fair accuracy and very good terminal ballistics, but the darn stuff is getting hard to find. From my testing the new Wolf Mil. Classic HP is NOT the same, and has inferior accuracy and poor terminal performance. As crazy as this sounds, I am currently looking to tool up for loading x39 myself...I will probably load it with 123gr. Winchester SPs and/or Hornady SSTs (if I can find any)...at least to begin with. What say ye about using .32cal. pistol bullets (note that these are sized to .312cal.)?

 

[Eb1]

So if I shoot corrosive out of my rifle living in the south. I guess I will have limited time to clean it.
I don't mind shooting corrosive primers. I know to just clean with hot soapy water like black powder, and I don't think that anything on the VZ2008 is really going to be damaged by water if I blow it out with air, and then use WD-40 to disperse the water, and then clean with solvent and Rem oil.

Do you guys shoot corrosive?

 

[Maverick223]

No, not enough cost difference for me to bother with it in 7.62x39mm...if I ever took up 5.45x39.5mm or 7.62x54mmR (doubtful on both counts) I might be swayed, but it's not worth the trouble for anything that I currently shoot.

 

[stubbicatt]

Corrosive ammo is not a problem so long as you clean properly. Promptly is a good idea too.

Over on one of the AK forums awhile ago there were threads about how if you shoot half a dozen non corrosive rounds after a session with corrosive, this would reduce the amount of corrosive residue or reduce the corrosivity (is that a word) of the residue, which.

Congrats on the new rifle.

 

[A_Matthew]

Try Herters. There is a sale going on right now at my local Cabela's for $4.50 a box. It cycles through my AK fine, and they are available in FMJ, HP, and SP.

 

[AR27]

Useless without pictures!

 

[Eb1]

Function Test.

I did a semi-function test today. I had 45 minutes of daylight left after driving to an acquaintance's place to shoot.
I took 200 rounds of Monarch from Academy. Only shot 85 rounds, and could only shoot @ 25 yards.

This was my first experience with the 7.62x39 round other than shooting one round at the range of someones rifle.

I have to say that I am impressed. Reminded me of my 30-30 loaded with 125 grain HP from Sierra @ 2300 fps. Virtually zero recoil. This is the first time I have ever shot a folding stock rifle. Very different, but doable for what the rifle was designed to do. To me this rifle is a close quarters urban rifle. Not designed for the open battle field. I know some of you guys already know this, and I have read this, but you don't really understand until you shoot a gun like this. You see I was use to shooting a 20" AR-15 rifle. This is a totally different feel, and to be honest I think that the AR-15 has a slower recovery to the target. This rifle was quick to get back on target. Maybe it is because of the 16" barrel along with the low recoil.

One thing I have to get is a glove. This thing gets hot, and I mean scalding hot. I know to hold it near the magazine, but I accidentally touched the gas block. OUCH!

The first round of shooting consisted of only 3 rounds in the magazine in case this thing went full auto on me, or just in case there was a failure I would not have a full mag disaster.
The first three shots standing, and shooting at a piece of housing siding with a spray painted circle of about 4" resulted in a 3 shot group of about 1/2" with two touching.
So I loaded a full magazine feeling it would safe. Ended up shooting the full magazine at the circle, and basically shot it out.
Next tests were to setup soup cans on the ground. They were easy to pop off at 25 yards. Even when shooting with the stock folded in.

I loaded each of my 2 magazine twice and ran them both without any failure to feed. I should have more time to shoot this weekend. Today was just to find out if the gun functioned, and if the magazines were okay.

Cleaning.
Sprayed the gun down after it cooled a bit with Windex down the barrel followed by four patches to dry. Sprayed the feed ramps and gas block and dried.
Came home and used scalding hot, soapy water down the barrel from the breach, and soaked all of the parts from the complete break down. Then I ran dry patches through the barrel to dry, and used a hair dryer to dry the mostly dried parts. Followed up with a few runs of CLP with a patch (old T-Shirt) wrapped bronze brush. Then dry T-shirt patches until they came out clean. Then a run of Rem Oil on a patch to coat the barrel. Used CLP on the moving parts of the gun, and reassembled. Then Rem Oiled the outer of the gun.

I think I am going to enjoy this gun. I really liked the round. I know it isn't as fast as the 5.56, but I bet these things would go through about anything I will come in contact with, and at a emergency survival situation this rifle would be one of my 1st choices now. I think I would pick this style rifle over a 20" AR-15 for a SAG gun. Thing does get hot though. Does the AK-47 run this hot?

I will try to get to the range for a 100 yard test on paper this weekend.

 

[Gordon_Freeman]

Why would you need windex and soapy water after shooting Monarch ammo?

 

[Eb1]

When in doubt clean it out.. I have shot other Russian Ammo in other calibers, and I do not know what the standards are for their ammo. I just treat all Ammo not made in America as corrosive.
I figure it is possible we are supplying them with primers, but I do not know that for sure. Water does not hurt your gun if you dry it out, and then coat it with oil. It is the best way to stop the salts from pitting your steel. I have shot my Black Powder rifle many times, and I always clean it with hot, soapy water. Never a speck of rust.
Do as you do with you and yours, and I will do as I do with me and mine.

 

[Maverick223]

A few notes:

1. Monarch is made by Barnaul, which is pretty good stuff and is not corrosive.
2. Windex is inferior to water for cleaning after firing corrosive ammo (it works only because it contains mostly water).
3. Gas operated rifles get hot. Most any will have a smoking hot gas block, this is typical of both the VZ.58 and AK pattern rifles as well as many others. A glove wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[Eb1]

1. Monarch is made by Barnaul, which is pretty good stuff and is not corrosive. Thanks. I still do not know for sure, but it did shoot reliably and accurately. The package did not mention if it was or wasn't. So I just took the precaution I thought I should to protect my firearm.
2. Windex is inferior to water for cleaning after firing corrosive ammo (it works only because it contains mostly water). Didn't have a water bottle with me at the time, but did clean with scalding, soapy water when I got home. Checked today, and there isn't any rust. I will keep a good check on it. Like I said earlier. I am new to this round and the AK style rifle. I have shot foreign ammo in my Lee Enfield, but I reload for it now. I washed it with Hot water as well before I started shooting my own unless I used American Ammo.
3. Gas operated rifles get hot. Most any will have a smoking hot gas block, this is typical I agree, but the AR15 never got as hot as this rifle. I don't care how fast or how many rounds I shot in a row. It never got this hot. I guess it has better hand guards than the VZ.
of both the VZ.58 and AK pattern rifles as well as many others. A glove wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd like to find a good tight fitting glove that would repel the heat. Do you have a suggestion?


Thank you for the tips. I have a question. Is Wolf Military Classic corrosive? I read about how the HP would disrupt pretty good. I ordered the lot of 500 rounds to give them a try. Any info on the Wolf M/C HP would be appreciated. I will also do some searching. Thanks.

 

[rocinante]

I'd like to find a good tight fitting glove that would repel the heat. Do you have a suggestion?

Some mechanic gloves fit tight and protect your hands from heat.

Shorty fore grip would keep your hand off it all together.

 

[Maverick223]

My mistake...I meant to say gas piston rifles rather than simply "gas operated". Personally I don't use a glove for shooting, but the recommendation to use a simple Mechanix glove is probably a good one as it affords some heat resistance whilst maintaining decent dexterity.

Wolf MC isn't corrosive and is decent stuff (I believe it to be loaded a bit hotter than the standard Wolf "black box" fodder), but lately it seems that they have changed their "recipe" from the original 8M3 bullet, and now use the same projectile as black-box Wolf (from what I have bought/seen/dissected, hopefully this will not be a permanent condition). This is unfortunate as the original was a very good bullet that exhibited exceptional terminal ballistics due to fragmentation. The new stuff is steel jacketed (as was the 8M3, but it was much thinner) and has deformation (and penetration) characteristics much like FMJ, which is to say not very good.

 

[Eb1]

Dang. I was buying it for that exact bullet.
I do know that the Monarch shot very good in this rifle at close distance. It seemed to be very decent and consistant with the shell extraction locations.

I for now d not see me loading for thid caliber. I thunk I am going to buy some Yugo M67. I know it is corrosive, but it deems to be the best bullet for the caliber for terminal ballistics.

I just got some Ballistol to help aid in cleanup. I will just have to grow into the gun and caliber.

 

[Maverick223]

That doesn't necessarily mean that you didn't get that bullet, but it is unlikely as the last few lots that I purchased didn't. The best way to tell is pull one and cut it in half. The Monarch should be good stuff, all the Barnaul ammo I have purchased has done well for me (compared to other Eastern Block ammo).

The Yugo fodder is only mildly corrosive, so while it should be thoroughly cleaned, it shouldn't be that bad. It is however berdan primed IIRC, so reloading is made impractical at best (if that is a concern). Due to the air pocket and softer jacket, it is likely to perform a good bit better than Wolf MC (unless you get lucky & receive some loaded with 8M3).