what defines a Hawken rifle? (got my momma hooked on BP today as well)

[Busyhands94]

just curious here. what classifies a rifle as a hawken. for me it's gotta have a forestock that ends fairly close to the lock, less than ten inches or so. and also those brass bands under the barrel, those seem "Hawken-ish" to me. i recently got my first flintlock rifle, it is a Traditions Frontier in .50 caliber. not to drift off topic here, but it is an amazing rifle. shot it today, accurate as can be. got the sights all dialed in, and now i can shoot a tin can from fifty paces. i have practiced with it to not flinch when the pan blazes. anyway, i would feel safe calling it a hawken rifle. any thoughts on what classifies a rifle as a hawken?

on a side note, i think i might have gotten my mother hooked on blackpowder shooting as well. as i mentioned before, my dad is really hooked on blackpowder. I'm hopelessly addicted, and my mother seems to really like it. she went shooting black powder for her first time today, and had a blast! (no pun intended) she shot my NAA super companion outfitted with my homemade rear sight and my Frontier flintlock rifle. she LOVED it. the smell, the puny recoil, the rush of shooting stuff. it's wonderful to have a family hooked on making smoke and noise, as well as little holes in stuff.

i am thinking of getting her a rifle of her own, but my big .50 flinter is too heavy for her to shoot all day. any ideas on what i could get that would be light, accurate, ergonomic, but still has some knockdown power to blow the crap out of stuff?

~Levi

 

[denster]

The term "Hawken" has been used so much to market so many types of rifles that it no longer has any meaning.
I'm just surprised that someone hasn't chosen to call an AR15 a Hawken assault rifle.

 

[arcticap]

Many modern sidelock rifles share the characteristic of being 1/2 stocks.
One lightweight model to look for to fit a lady or teen is a CVA Frontier Carbine. CVA made both a rifle and a carbine version of their Frontier of which the carbine was lighter, shorter and handier. It was made in .50 caliber with an adjustable rear sight.

 

[StrawHat]

To me a "Hawken" is a rifle designed along the lines of what Sam and or Jake produced in St Louis when they were building rifles. Shorter than what their family made in Pennsylvania and heavier. Also large calibered, for me starting at 54 and going up. Iron furniture, although there is at least one documented rifle with brass furniture. For a production rifle, about the closest sopy is the Lyman Great Plains rifle. For a custom rifle, most any custom builder worthy of the name knows what a "Hawken" is supposed to be.

There are quite a few books about the Hawken family and what they produced. Also a few books about Sam and Jake.

 

[J.T. Gerrity]

Another feature of a real "Hawken" is the use of double barrel wedges on the half-stock; seems like most Hawkens I've seen have this. Speaking of repro's, here's a real nice "Hawken" for a decent price from the Saint Louis Plains Rifle Co:


http://www.donstith.com/j_s_half_stock.html

Check it out. I have the "Kit Carson Hawken" purportedly based on careful measurements of the real thing; I don't know about that, but it's a beautiful rifle and a tack driver to boot. I'll try to get pics and post soon...

 

[BHP FAN]

Congrats! even today, I still see very few women at the range. that's over half the population, with a huge voting impact on our gun rights. fellas, follow Buzyhands example and get the gals in your life out shooting. they'll enjoy it, and so will you!

 

[4v50 Gary]

A real Hawkins came from the Hawkins shop. Some were made by their employee, Gemmer (sp). Modern interpretations of the Hawkins are generally half-stock rifles with hook-breech and with barrels secured by wedges (not pins). Mind you, a few original Hawkins were full stocked but they built to meet the demands of the customers.

 

[Busyhands94]

J.T. Gerrity, that rifle is beautiful! i love the finish on that rifle! do they offer the kit Carson Hawken rifle as a kit? then they could list it as the "Kit Carson Hawken Kit" haha!

BHP Fan, it can be easy to forget that a lot of women like guns too. for example my mother loved shooting that flintlock rifle, there is something about flintlocks that just captivates me, the old-timey way of doing things. at first i thought that a .50 caliber was going to be too big for me, but after shooting a few 20 grain loads, then some 50 grain loads, then finally i am shooting 80 grain loads, i realized that it is just like firing a shotgun really. it's not the big .50 BMG, heck! i could fire this in a handgun. and one of the benefits of blackpowder is it simply pushes the shoulder, and is not too bad of a kick where smokeless has more of a punch to it.

shooting a blackpowder rifle is better because it is just a push, and not a kick. i explained that to my mother before she fired it, and she understood that it was nothing to be afraid of. she fired a good amount of shots, and had no bruise on her shoulder. when she fired a 12 gauge shotgun she got a huge purple bruise on her shoulder after only 25 shots of Remington gun club, and that was with a recoil pad. i fired 75 rounds with the 12 gauge with no problems. my flintlock rifle has a brass butt plate and she fired more than 25 shots with no discomfort at all. now i know for sure that i will never be able to shoot myself to the point of having a bruised shoulder! and besides, there is no way i could scrounge up enough lead to cast that much ammo. how many pounds do you recon it would take? haha!

i also got her to cast a few .50 conicals and some .490 round balls, witch we shot off the next day. so far i got my dad hooked on blackpowder, and now i am seeing my mother has the potential of really enjoying it as well, it's great!

~Levi

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Today a great many folks use the name Hawken for any "plains style" rifle, just as some people say "Kleenex" when they should say "facial tissue". First guns made by the Hawken Brothers in St. Louis (iirc) were full stocked rifles, with shorter than common barrels.

Plains style rifles are considered half-stocked, with a barrel that has a metal under rib along its exposed portion that functions as a guide for the ramrod and supports the ramrod thimbles. Often they have a hooked breech and use keys which when pulled allow the barrel to easily be removed from the stock/lock assembly. The barrel itself tends to be shorter than Eastern long rifles of the same time period.

LD

 

[Loosenock]

An feature that Hawken Bros. had on their rifles was a sturdy and reinforced wrist. The breech tang was long. There are two long screws going through this tang one just behind the pattent breech and the outher a furthest rear of the the tang. The screws went through the wrist area of the stock and screwing into tapped holes in the long trigger plate. The trigger guard had an integral threaded stud from the front of the trigger bow that screwed into the trigger plate. The rear of guard was also screwed into the rear of the trigger plate. This triad of parts added substantial strength to wrist area of the firearm. I dont know of any other maker of the period who did so unless they were making a "clone".

I've read that Beauvias bought parts from the Hawkens to build his clones. The Hawken is sometimes called the "St. Louis rifle" and the "Mountain Rifle".

An outstanding book to read is "Tom Tobin" by James E. Perkins. Tom Tobin was a frontiersman, mountain man and man hunter. A fine movie could be made about the way he stopped murderous raids using his famous rifle.

 

[Dellbert]

Busyhands94. Hope you don't think I'm being cheap, but Cabela's has some fine Hawken rifles. I got my Hawken back when they were $200 bucks a pop. I can't get this rifle for less than $500 now. They have the hawken with all the brass on them for $430 dollars. The Missouri Hawken is $1000. and the Rocky Mountain Hawken is about $1200 bucks all come in .50 and .54 cal. I've got the Cabela's .50 cal Hawken carbine on my list. Believe they have the faster rate twist in the barrel of the carbine. They come in .50 and .54 cal. I think it's a great thing your mom, and dad shooting with you. I had my son shooting a 22 befour he was in first grade. He was shooting groups you could cover with a quarter at 50 yrds by the time he was in the second grade. I'm working on my wife about the BP revolvers, and rifles now. I have a couple friends that shoot, and hunt with me once in a while, as for the BP revolvers I'm on my own. Most of the people I know are scared of them, or think I'm playing with toys cause they're so use to big magnum hand guns, and rifles. So I'm on my own with the BP revolvers. and pistols. Have found the folks here kind, and helpful. Welp have fun stay safe. Dellbert

 

[ElvinWarrior]

Busy,

A Hawkin, is a rifle made by the Hawkin Brothers, carrying their name upon it, and of the style discussed here so profusely.

Anything other than that, is a reproduction, a fake, a wana be, or another rifle posing as a Hawkin.

Just my two cents.

LOL...

And... Congrats on getting your mom hooked !!!... I can just picture the group of you, all toghether, out on a hunting trip, all totin your smokin flinters, trying to figure out how you're going to haul 6 deers, 2 elks, 4 hogs and 27 wascally wabbits and one stray Canadian Moose that somehow ended up in Northern Cali, back to the truck, 6 miles away.... LOL !!!

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

 

[Cosmoline]

A Hawkin, is a rifle made by the Hawkin Brothers, carrying their name upon it, and of the style discussed here so profusely.

Anything other than that, is a reproduction, a fake, a wana be, or another rifle posing as a Hawkin.

Well, by that definition almost nobody has one, and very very few *EVER* had one. The name can mean what you described, or it can mean the general type of rifle that was inspired by the originals, both at that time and in modern times.

 

[Dellbert]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but I have two questions for StrawHat or anybody that can or will answer it first. StrawHat said "although there is at least one documented rifle with brass furniture" is that saying that the Hawkens we go skipping through the woods with, that has the brass furniture was never a hawken that people had back when the Hawken brothers were making them never was used, or owned by the people of that time? Was it just a show piece or something?

 

[mykeal]

What I think he was saying is that the generally accepted standard of an original Hawken (i.e., one made by the Hawken brothers or their shop in the early to mid 1800's) was iron furniture & fittings, but even that had an exception. Yes, they did make at least one documented rifle with brass fittings. Was that their standard offering? No. But they were businessmen trying to make a living. Walk into any Ford dealership with enough money and they will put a Magnavox long wave radio in your Taurus without blinking an eye.

 

[Busyhands94]

i do believe i have trained my parents well. soon, they will wear full brimmed hats and denim jackets, shoot blackpowder revolvers, and flintlocks like me. then, the transformation will be complete!

you guys should have seen my mom, she was like a motherly version of Annie Oakley! LOL! and my dad, he was shooting ketchup packets from a fair distance away with my NAA .22 LR companion. i must admit, that's better than what i can do. my parents actually got up early to shoot like i like to do. that is a sign of a developing gunny. now, i just need to buy them both blackpowder revolvers or a smokepole of some sort. i am proud of them, they are really showing development towards becoming blackpowder nuts like me. that, it the ultimate goal. when i move out, i want them to still go shooting, even without me.

i think the next logical step is to buy a blackpowder shotgun, and teach my mom to shoot that effectively. the smokeless ones kick like a mule if you are not conditioned like i am. however, blackpowder guns seem to have a firm push instead of slamming into the shoulder.

either way, i foresee plenty of enjoyment of gunpowder and lead in our future, smokeless or black. most likely black, because the fun of blackpowder is highly addictive.

~Levi

 

[StrawHat]

Dellbert,

mykeal said pretty much what I would have replied. The hawkens built rifles one at a time to be as close to what the customer wanted. They generally had iron furniture and plian trimmings because that is what was on hand at the shop. They got supplies in batches and built with what they had. Special orders were a pain back then, just like now.

mykeal, Thanks for helping out. Sometimes I don't get online for days.