What distances are common Shotgun loads lethal at?

[sonny]

To a human enemy in wartime....will they be used in bahgdad?
Lets say you where engaged in an urban gunfight and only had regular bird shot?.....how about 00 buck?....might as well throw in slugs while I'm at it.........good shot placement included.
Spare me the one in a million scenerios please.....like a pellet hitting an eye at 500 yds and blinding the enemy...please

 

[DeltaElite]

I'm no shotgun expert, but I can hit a man sized target at 100 yards using slug with my rifle sighted Remington 870.
00 buck disperses to about a 2 foot in diameter pattern at 25 yards with my gun, so unless I have a solid backstop it is limited to shorter ranges.
I have never patterned birdshot with my 870, since I don't hunt defenseless birdies.

As for lethality, slug will do incredible damage anywhere I can hit you. Just ask all those dead deer.
00 buck will do less at lesser ranges than slug, since they are smaller projectiles, .32cal if I recall correctly.

In my personal book of stuff, slug is realistically effective out to 100 yards.
00 buck out to 35 yards with a heck of a backstop for all the ones that will miss.

Theoretically, most anything can be lethal, but effective ranges are what I go with. I don't see many scenarios where I would use 00 buck at more than 15 yards.

 

[sonny]

Thanks DeltaElite

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Definitely 100 yards with slugs ... when you take a tactical shotgun course, that is part of the drill. And, those slugs make a very impressive hole.

I could guess at bird shot and 00 buck from memory, but I should let someone else answer with more authority. With 00 buck, I'd certainly be plenty worried at 50 yards. If I recall rightly, I think the average spread is 1 inch per yard. For the caliber, and count of pellets for any shot load, check out a quality ammunition web site, such as Federal.

I doubt they'll be using shotguns in Bagdad ... at least as far as the good guys go.

Regards from TX

 

[jthuang]

You mean lethality or realistic effective range?

According to The Tactical Shotgun (Suarez, 1996), 00 buck is good to around 25 yards and slugs out to 100. See pages 21-22.

Lethality range is more, but he's talking practical effective range.

Will they use SGs in Baghdad? Dunno, but if they are used, you may see some Benelli M4s and the like used in close quarters (building clearing, etc.) rather than "in the field".

Justin

 

[yankytrash]

Well I don't about that 100yd stuff with slugs. 2 years ago, a friend of mine claims to have lobbed a slug at buck at 200yd, kinda like shootin a mortar I guess, and killed'm.

We still hold that he's full of you-know-what, and that the deer tripped and died in the ditch we found it in.

You make the call...

 

[CWL]

I wouldn't shoot 2 3/4" 00 (or 000) buck beyond 20 yards since that's what I've patterned my SGs to. I know exactly where my shot will hit & how wide the pattern will spread at 5, 10, 15, 20 yards. -Beyond this is useless for my SGs since the spread will be too wide. Most regular shotguns can't hold a good spread beyond 15 yards on a single human-sized target.

-You have to understand that the lethality of buckshot is in it's ability to dump all of its energy into a target-not the fact that you can send individual buckshot out in a spray to who know's where. Some will shoot slugs out to 100-125-150 yards, but I don't see the need for this in a defensive weapon.

Birdshot is for under 15-20 yards. It'll go farther but wont penetrate well.

 

[Yohan]

One advantage is- when you run out of ammo, I bet it'd make one good club.

 

[Dave R]

For 00 buck, 35 yards sounds about right to me. I patterned my 870 with it at 25 yards, and got 10-12" patterns. Oddly enough, modified choke gave me tighter patterns than full choke. Oh, well, that's why we pattern.

I need to try it at 50 yards and see how bad it gets out there...

 

[DMK]

Lethal or effective?

You guy don't think that a couple pellets from 00 buck aren't lethal at 100 yards?

Now could one effectively hit something at that range? I know I'd have to be pretty lucky to do it intentionally.

 

[MrKandiyohi]

In regards to buckshot, there was a shooting by a Minnesota police officer at a fleeing subject about 15 years ago. Range was 50 yards and a single pellet (correct word for buckshot?) hit the subject in the back. Subject died on the scene.

I think I remember that the pellet was .25 in diameter, so it's not a tiny piece of metal.

The biggest problem with the effective range of shotguns is the spread/accuracy of the shotgun and not necessary the distance travelled.

 

[10-Ring]

WOW, that's good to know. I only have some limited experience w/ the shotgun...mostly for trap but I do have a shotgun for home defense. I was only thinking the ideal application was w/in 30 yards.

 

[Topgun]

A buddy and I got some 3/4" pine boards and set em up at 50 yards and blasted away with 0 buck. I only had a 16 ga at the time so no 00 was available.

Those boards literally blew to pieces. Hunks flying all over. No accuracy, but enough hits to destroy pine boards.

We were testing out a gunrag article that stated in a given amount of TIME, a shotgun will outhit a submachine gun.

They are right.

 

[Poodleshooter]

Oddly enough, modified choke gave me tighter patterns than full choke. Oh, well, that's why we pattern.

Not odd at all. Large pellets have problems with deformation in tight chokes, especially when they're unbuffered. I use a modified extended choke meant for large steel shot, in order to get my best buckshot patterns.


Why use a shotgun for close range urban combat? That's what assault rifles are for. At close range, .223 will zip through a vest just as well as slugs, and on full auto, you can put as much lead in the air, nearly as fast.

 

[Navy joe]

With my guns I would engage at 40-50 max with 00 or #4 buck, 100+ with slugs. That's for a military situation. I will get good hits. They may only be wounded and there will for sure be extra pellets going to parts unknown. For a civilian sit 20-25 would be buckshot zone. Birdshot? I'm guessing pretty lethal to 12 yards. Still rather detterent after that.

 

[Braz]

My 1300 has a 18" barrel,

Smooth bore, and doesn't shoot effective patterns past 15yds. That's with 00, and I aim about four feet low to hit at 100yds with a slug. A short, selectfire M4 would work much better for house to house combat. A shotgun is great for home defense though, imo.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Let's clarify something here.

A number of comments above refer to patterning your shotgun. When you do this, you determine what your shotgun will do with specific loads, and how confident you'll be that all pellets will land on target.

Those pellets can be lethal for quite a distance, and there have been some sad stories about innocent people being killed by LEO's and others because a pellet went astray.

It's important to know your shotgun, know your loads, and recognize the significant accuracy differences between a shotgun, a rifle and a handgun. We're responsible for every round that goes downrange. And while we can have a discussion about long shots, that doesn't mean they're advisable, or the best use of the firearm.

No offense ... just felt it might be good to reemphasize this point for lurkers.

Regards from TX

 

[trapshooter]

Define "lethal".

Instantly (pretty much), eventually, or maybe?

As mentioned, buckshot loads can be pretty immediate out to 25-40 yards, but you could get lucky out to 100 or so. Slugs, I'd buy 100 to 200. They are heavy, and as long as they are moving at over 300-500 fps I'd say they'd mess you up pretty good. Lighter shot loads lose effectiveness rapidly after 50 yards, but trap loads will break clay targets at over 75. Not (instantly, surely) lethal, but would hurt. I wouldn't expect rapidly debilitating shots at anything over 25 yards with non-buck loads.

None of the above is scientific, just swags from shooting a ton of shotgun rounds. Also, I'm talking twelve's. Slugs in any size, no difference. With buck or shot loads, hits are hits, but the lighter shot in lesser gauges means lower effectiveness due to lighter pattern density, so the range needed for quick results would drop, across the board. YMMV.

 

[280PLUS]

i'm no shotgun expert but i did happen to read somwhere that at least one seal from the vietnam era prefered #4 shot for close quarters use. lots more pellets than 00, and they had an interesting modification that was made to the barrel, but i'm not going to go into that. IMHO if i was going to defend my house with a shotgun, my choice would be the pump action remington 870 express "YOUTH CUT" in 20 ga. it features a 20" barrel and a shortened stock, great manueverability (sp?) and it is light and fast. why 20 ga? so mama can handle it no problem, matter of fact i've been trying to talk my 94 yo granny into buying one, you think YOU live in a bad neighborhood. granny just laughs at me.
anyhow, indoors i like birdshot. because if your that close (10- 15 ft?) the pattern will still be tight enough so it might as well be a slug, and if you miss, the shot will be less prone to penetrate walls and doors and hurt the wrong people. always a consideration. another thing i just remembered, according to my gun dealer bud, the most recognized and feared sound amongst the bad guys is the sound of a pump action shotgun being racked up.



m

 

[redneck2]

All so far...

sounds right for shot

as for slugs....I just got some sabots for my 12 ga. IIRC they're around 400 grains @ 1,800 fps

At The Battle of Adobe Walls, Billy Dixon killed a hostile at over 1500 yards with a 45-70.....405 grain bullet at 1,300 fps. They were routinely used on buffalo at 600 yards+

In the original Army tests of the 45-70, multiple 1" pine boards (I believe it was 6) were penetrated at 1,500 yards. I believe the bullet rise above the line of sight was something like 28 feet.

I well realize there's the accuracy factor, but the point is that modern shotguns with sabots are about the same as blackpowder express elephant rifles. If you have doubts, I'll let you try my 3" 870.

shotguns with slugs are a whole different game than they were just a few years ago

 

[Kimber Kid]

Trapshooter, as requested,

lethal

le·thal [ lthl ]
adjective

1. deadly: causing or able to cause death


2. harmful: causing disaster or destruction a move that was lethal to his career

but trap loads will break clay targets at over 75.

Now, would you define the term effective range?

 

[HSMITH]

AHA!!!!!!!!!! Someone else thinks a bit too!! Redneck has some VERY good points on the use and range of slugs. They are effective WAAAAAAAYYYY past 100 yards if you can hit the target, with a little practice and some decent sights a 200 yard shot on a man sized target is plain easy with an accurate slug gun.

There are some problems with slugs right now though. I don't think shotgun slugs are nearly as consistently loaded as a BP cartridge, and the number one problem with sabot slugs is getting the sabot to discard the same every time. Getting the sabot to discard is a major focus of the ammo makers, and progress is being made. I think that is what is keeping the ranges down. When loadings get more consistent and the sabot more friendly the ranges could be really long, dedicated slug guns that can use the ammo are already here. I know guys that shoot BPCR at 1000 yards using loads that are slower with lower BC than most sabot slugs (usually a higher SD though) and can shoot groups that would hit a man at least 9 out of 10 times.

Vernier tang sight on the 870? I doubt it, but on a falling block type slug gun or a bolt it would be a lot of fun to play with.

Back to the original topic, slugs are good for a LONG way, depends on you, your shotgun and the ammo. 100+yards is EASY even with rifled slugs and cylinder bore barrels sporting a plain single bead sight.

Birdshot is good to put a serious hurt on people at nearly 100 yards too, lethal quickly at 65 yards or so for #2 lead. #2 lead will penetrate the skin at 100 yards, and patterns can be made to actually hit you at 100 yards. #4 lead at 100 yards will not penetrate skin nor is it likely to be lethal at 65 yards.

Buckshot is lethal past 100 yards, and it is EASY to get a some pellets on a man sized target at 100 yards if you dump 4 or 5 rounds at it. Choked correctly I would believe 2-4 pellets on a man at 100 yards EVERY shot with 3" OO buck, although I have not tried it. 3.5" OOO would be even easier, and 3.5" #4 will shred a target at 50 yards with mind boggling efficiency.

If the folks that always claimed 25 yards and such silly numbers for shotguns would spend some time and money with a good choke tube barrel the public would have a lot better idea of what a shotgun is actually capable of. 25 yards may well be true of a pipe barreled riot gun, but is not even close to what can be done. Most folks don't have the ability to get anywhere near the capabilities of a shotgun either, not a flame just an honest observation.

 

[Dave McCracken]

We may not be comparing apples to apples here...

I'd consider the max range for employing buckshot at whatever distance the pattern is 15" wide or less. This would ensure all the pellets adding their energy to what hits the target and minimizes
(Not eliminates) collateral damage. Those that get that pattern at 40 yards can consider themselves lucky.

At 100 yards my slugs hit in less than 5" from either "Serious" 870, but they're starting to keyhole and drop precipitiously. Most folks have trouble estimating range anyway. I'm sure the KO Brenekkes can be lethal at more than 100 yards, but placing them correctly is very difficult.

BTW, Billy Dixon used a 45-120-505 Sharps for that long shot(Source,Paul Wellman). The buffalo hunters claimed a kill, the Comanches later said the brave was knocked off his horse but recovered.They bith say he was hit. Believe who you want to.

Birdshot is best at stopping when the pattern is fist sized or smaller. Call it 8-10 yards in most cases.