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What if attacked...

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kngflp

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Jul 3, 2004
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The pizza parlor thread got me thinking. Ok you have your ccw and some one engages you with their fist, I'm not going to go toe to toe with anyone, I am going to take them to the ground to subdue them. In such a senerio I am worried about my weapon being accessable to others. At what point is it reasonable to draw said weapon in fear that it will be used against you. Would the attacker actually have to go for the gun before it would be considered acceptable to draw. If someone goes for a gun on your person what level of force should you respond with? If you are on the losing end of a fight would it be ok to draw a gun to end it?
I don't go around getting in fights and don't plan on it, but is it not reasonable to believe that if you get in a fight there is a good chance of getting knocked out and if you are carrying a weapon you know there is a weapon available to the attacker even if there wasn't before hand.
 
In most jurisdictions, if you respond to an attack using non-lethal force by applying lethal force, you're neck-deep in the dwang. Only if there are issues such as disparity of force, physical disability, etc. can you plead justification for escalating to the lethal force level.
 
If it's a concern for you though, you should investigate some retention holsters. Something as simple as http://www.copquest.com/14-1600.htm might suffice.

Personally I want as little contact with someone intent on harming me as possible. So, I guess my strategy could be summed up as, strike ferociously if needed and run away. I don't want to subdue/wrestle/touch anyone in that kind of situation.
 
I'm not going to go toe to toe with anyone, I am going to take them to the ground to subdue them.

This strategy is the wrong one for this (or most any personal protection) situation IMHO. Your concern should be getting out of the area. If that is not possible and he attacks you, then you need to strike first and very hard (something like a chin jab) and force him out of your way, into everyone else's way as you get to the exit.

If you intentionally ground yourself to deal with one person, then you have to worry about all the other bystanders (who might be friends of the BG) and you still haven't made any progress towards the exit. Hopefullly, you don't have someone with you because I don't know what they would be doing while your on the ground "subdueing" the 1st guy.

Remember the customer in that vid thought he was only dealing with the female and he should have left then. Then the Ex-con boyfriend came in (he really should have left!!!) then he got hit and it was too late. If you find yourself on the ground, get up quick and continue towards the exit. If you get impeded from exiting, then if you're life is in danger of serious bodily harm, access your CCW and continue towards the exit, firing into the large Ex-con "obstruction" if necessary.

Don't worry about witnessess, courts blah blah. If all your actions centered around trying to get you and your loved ones out of the situation as soon as it turned south then the rest will take care of itself. Choosing to take one dude down to the ground will cause way more problems than it will solve.
 
re

Subdue probably wasn't the best word for what I meant. My thinking is if someone was attacking you in an enclosed area you can only back up so much, so, get them to the ground do as much damage as you can do quickley thus enableing your get away. I'm 6'3 300lbs I'm not going anywhere very fast so I don't want to turn and run, my thinking was to make it harder for someone to come after you. But I guess you all are right that now that I carry a weapon I must re-evaluate my tactics. Sorry sometimes it's hard to ask these types of questions without the use of wording that makes one come off as a mall ninja wanna-be cop. Also, I wasn't asking if it would be ok to use lethal force to end a fist fight, I understand the levels of force.
I really need to get some OC for me and the people in my life, it really does seem to be the answer to alot of iffy situations.
 
I recomend against "going to ground" in a situation like that. The problem with this is that if he gets the better of you he can mess you up a lot very quickly. You also lose your chance to escape.

I was a fairly accomplished collegiate wrestler not too long ago. I'm also a pretty big guy in reasonable shape. As such I can probably handle about %90 of the people out there on the ground. Even still when it comes to the real world that is the last place that I am goin. Why? There is always that %10, and they don't wear nametags. If someone like that gets you on the ground it doesnt take long for that fight to turn into a trip to the hospital or the morgue.

My best advise for unarmed encounters is to walk (or run) away. It isnt brave or "cool" and noone will write a song about you, but you will stand a much better chance of living the rest of your life with all your teeth and without brain damage. If that isnt an option then you do what you have to do. You don't have to MATCH his force but, you need to be close. Even f he is the aggressor and you have attempted to evade, you probably shouldnt shoot him. Right or wrong, as a large male the authorities are going to expect you to be able to defend yourself against a non-lethal threat without a firearm.
 
Just to complicate matters . . . suppose the aggressor is hopped up on crack or crystal meth . . . you may end up absorbing one he** of a beating.

Or suppose he has hepatitis, AIDS, or some other communicable disease? You want to engage him in close quarters where he might bite you? What if you break his nose and he bleeds all over you?

These days, it's not all that easy distinguishing a "mere" fistfight from a potentially lethal assault.
 
I would also agree that going to the ground first and foremost is a bad idea. In a situation like that, you have no idea how many allies he has around that are going to give you a boot party. Avoidance and awareness are key here. He could have walked out of the pizza parlor ASAP as soon as the BG starting becoming belligerent. Also, he should have raised his hands in a fence to cover his face/neck and retreated IMMEDIATELY. After the BG attacks, hit him with everything you got until you can get to your escape route. This really is a tough situation to call. I'm not certain that I would be able to draw to a retention position without getting my face knocked off.

RyanM- I'm assuming that you didn't see the whole video. The situation went from trash-talking to full-on assault in the blink of an eye. If I pepper sprayed every person that has talked trash on me, Fox Labs would give me a subscription. I don't really see an opportunity where the guy could have pepper sprayed him. Pepper spray wouldn't have helped him but getting the heck out of there and not calling someone out for cutting in line would have helped.
 
here is what i was taught back in the police academy back 10+ yrs ago. i think it basically holds the same nowadays. the issue here is not necessarily winning the fight but winning the ensuing court battle.

if it was pure survival in a lawless world then 100% of the time go to firearm and engage BG since it is going to be the most effective and efficient way to put a BG down with no risk of getting into any sort of legal trouble.

now having said that, i think the issues are:

1. being reasonable in the eyes of the law, and
2. simple but effective ways to ensure your safety without always relying on a firearm.

Given that premise, I hope I can give some input.

Police officers are given a "force continuum," or a type of ladder for escalation and de-escalation of force. from bottom to top they generally are:

command presence
voice commands
hands-on (come alongs, low profile wrist lock)
physical force (punches, elbows, kicks, etc)*
canine*
OC (pepper) spray or chemical agent*
taser gun*
flashlight/baton/other impact weapon*
less lethal weapon (pepperball/beanbag projectile)*
deadly force (firearm/vehicle)

everything with a * above denotes "intermediate" force, all of which are on the same level (i.e. canine is not below O.C. spray, they are the same level) so when you get to intermediate force, you can use any of these so long as you can articulate why you chose one over the other, i.e. "i chose the flashlight because it was already in my hand and because utilizing O.C. spray inside a crowded bar would have caused a panic and possible stampede, jeopardizing public safety. a canine, taser gun, etc was not available inside the bar."

however, the standard is not the same for police as it is for civilians, especially CCW'd civilians. a police officer is not expected to walk away from confrontation, instead, is expected to attempt to diffuse the situation and then take someone into custody if need be using whatever force is deemed necessary to effect the arrest.

a citizen usually will be asked why he/she did not leave the scene in order to diffuse the situation. a CCW'd citizen, carrying a firearm, will be expected to leave the scene. if he/she stands his/her ground and ends up using deadly force, the issue will always be "had he/she left would this have become a deadly force situation?"

the flipside of that is if you cannot reasonably leave, i.e. the BG is blocking the only visible exit, then legally you should be covered "i couldn't leave the scene because the aggressor was preventing me from leaving" [i.e. false imprisonment].

simple assault in and of itself is not a valid reason to use deadly force. if it was the cops could shoot everyone that pushes them or otherwise assaults them. so if someone pushes you or otherwise commits a simple assault I think if you pulled out a gun and shot them you would probably be charged with a felony.

you could, however, defend yourself from attack by countering his assault with pepper spray or a fist. you could very easily defend yourself from prosecution when using pepper spray if the person made an aggressive advance towards you, since OC supposedly does not leave permanent damage. nowhere in the law does it state you must be struck first before you can defend yourself. an assault is defined as "an attempt coupled with present ability." so if someone cocks their fist back he has committed an assault. similarly if someone points a gun at you he has committed aggravated assault, regardless if he's fired a shot at you.

in the pizza parlor incident, i don't think this guy was expecting this big behemoth to come in and punch him silly. i think after the first 2 or 3 hits, if the guy was CCW'd he probably could shoot him and get away with it legally. a person that large, when seen by a jury, will most likely take the position of the victim. the large BM assaulted the WM for no reason and was over twice the size of him. nobody came to the WM's aid as well. he could have easily argued as a CCW holder that he felt in fear for his life because of the relentless assault and that he was about to go unconscious, at which time the bad guy may find his weapon and kill him with it. i think after seeing that video, not too many D.A.'s would try to hang that guy for a homicide charge. you could have run all the way up the force continuum with an impact weapon and you probably wouldn't have incapacitated him unless you started breaking bones.

i have started advocating carrying an intermediate force weapon in addition to a weapon if you are CCW'd. it gives you another force option between hands and gun. i recommend O.C., but a mini maglite or SureFire light would also serve as an impact weapon as well.

it looks better to a jury as well if you tried O.C. or another less lethal force first but failed.

keeping that in mind, do not ever think you are compelled to attempt nonlethal force first before going to deadly force. if the BG pulls a knife or a gun or tries to run you over or whatever, bypass the intermediate force and meet deadly force with deadly force.

having said all this....im not a lawyer or an expert witness!
 
At what point is it reasonable to draw said weapon in fear that it will be used against you.
If the attacker has attempted o take it away from you and you reasonably feared he was about to shoot you with your own weapon if he got it. But don't take it out if you are not going to use it, and be darned sure you are still justified because he is still making an attempt or is telling you that is what he is going to do. Unless you are well trained in weapons retention and close quarters shooting, keeping it holstered may be better.

If someone goes for a gun on your person what level of force should you respond with?
This could depend on the situation. If you think the person is a bad guy trying to harm you or another with your own firearm, then you would probably be able, by my guess, to use deadly force.

If you are on the losing end of a fight would it be ok to draw a gun to end it?
What kind of a fight. If you mean a fist fight, and that you were being beaten so badly you REASONABLY feared that you were about to receive SERIOUS bodily harm or possibly be killed then I believe deadly force would be justified.

I don't go around getting in fights and don't plan on it, but is it not reasonable to believe that if you get in a fight there is a good chance of getting knocked out and if you are carrying a weapon you know there is a weapon available to the attacker even if there wasn't before hand.
No this would not likely be seen as reasonable in every situation, not even in most fights. of how many fights are you aware wherein someone was knocked out as opposed to those where someone was not knocked out. REASONABLE is the key word in all of these situations and no it would not be reasonable to assume there is a good chance of you getting knocked out. Of course, if someone is beating your head into a wall, that would be different but if you are talking a fist fight, forget it unless you were being beaten almost senseless.

All the best,
Glenn B
 
re

Thanks for all the replys, it has been very educational. I would love to here more replys especially from law enforcment. The whole go to the ground thing was taught to me by my grandfather who was a WW2 vet, I guess in a life or death warzone situation with no civil courts it makes more sense. It's funny how things like that stick with you.
Trust me I have no problems walking away from a fight, I have walked away from many more than I have ever been in.
 
I always tell people who ask this very same question this,

If the idea of going to jail is much more pleasant than the thought of what will happen to you if you do not take action then the time has come to clear leather.

Shooting someone especially someone who is unarmed is all about how you articulate the situation.

As a Civilian CCW, in Georgia you can use deadly force if you are in fear of your life, to defend someone else’s life or if you are in fear of great bodily harm.

As a LEO, in Georgia I can use deadly force under the same rules as well as to effect an arrest under OCGA 17-4-20 if certain circumstances are present.

Now I am 600 tall and weigh in at around 185 pounds I’m a bit on the wiry side, kind of like a long distance runner. I don’t work out, I do pushups and sit ups every morning and evening and I run when I can.

If I am dealing with a person who is 600 to 605 and weights in around the 200 to 300 pound mark and the situation has deteriorated to the point where I am now in fear of this guy becoming violent or physical with me, I’m clearing leather and giving verbal commands. If he does not respond or responds in a way which I feel is threatening then I will use deadly force because I am in fear of great bodily harm because I know I don’t stand much of a chance against him in a one on one fight. There is a very high probability that I possibly will lose control of my weapon and for that reason I responded accordingly.

This is a situation you must articulate, now in a perfect world I would be able to go from verbal commands to OC, to an impact weapon which is what I would do if I felt I had the time to, I would use the OC as long as I felt comfortable with the situation, but the moment I felt I was in a position to receive great bodily injury I am shooting.

I work for a department where we may have backup just a few blocks away if we are close in to one of the cities in our county, a supervisor may be close by or a State Trooper in the area, but we have many areas which are a long ways out and backup may be 15 minutes out running lights and sirens to get to you.

We have areas where our portable radios will not get out and we must return to the car to use the radio.

All of this will be running thru my head and will ultimately become a factor in my decision to shoot or not to shoot.

Also I may let the person escape if I feel that is the best course of action, if they are known to us, local repeat customers or frequent flyers we call’em.

Many factors come into play but in the end I don’t care whether you are armed or not, if I feel you pose a threat to me for whatever reason I will respond and respond with a level of force I feel will most quickly end that threat.

There is mounds of case law where cops have shot and killed unarmed persons that were found to be justified due to the circumstances surrounding the shoot.
 
don't wanna step on anyone's toes here, but...


seems to me that a HIGH percentage of these types of situations happen due to the inherent "tough guy" "smartass" mentality of so many young males these days.

pizza parlor guy, caught that vicious beat down, due primarily to the fact that he had to "run his mouth" over the phone over something as trivial as someone cutting in line. that and the fact that he was not just in condition white, he was in freakin condition translucent.

that in no way justifies what happened to him, by any stretch of the imagination.


put in a similar situation, I would do everything possible to diffuse the situation. Including "looking like a wimp." I'll walk away from any situation that I can. Up to the point that there is no way out, and I'm forced to resort to physical means.

The last training class I took our instructor said something that summed it up pretty well. It was something to the effect of

"avoid the confrontation, difuse the confrontation, do everything possible to get out of a confrontation. do everything to avoid the fight, but when its time to fight, fight to win."
 
RyanM- I'm assuming that you didn't see the whole video. The situation went from trash-talking to full-on assault in the blink of an eye. If I pepper sprayed every person that has talked trash on me, Fox Labs would give me a subscription. I don't really see an opportunity where the guy could have pepper sprayed him. Pepper spray wouldn't have helped him but getting the heck out of there and not calling someone out for cutting in line would have helped.

You're right; my connection has been a bit touchy about large files lately. Just in general, though, it should be possible to fend/block with one hand while drawing pepper spray (or a gun or whatever) with the other, in many instances. It's also quite possible to draw whatever on the run, to dissuade pursuit. If the assault is so brutal that you can't do either (draw or run), I don't think fighting bare-handed is that much of an option, either. At least not for me, I'm in terrible shape.
 
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