what is considered +p in 45acp load data?

[1858rem]

looking through my load books, i was starting to wonder if +p loads are designated as so in a separate area of the book...... but none of my books are like this for 45 acp, so i was thinking maybe +p loads are just what is listed as max load? i dont want to beat up my RIA 1911 and i dont know if it is ok to use +p ammo in it so id like to stick to about 18000 psi or less.

i have been using a few loads with pretty good results
200g LRN and 4g bullesye- not chronoed
200g LRN and 5g bullseye- 949fps
255g LRNFP and 6g AA#5- 755fps


i was also wondering about the bullets im using,
not for 45 ACP?
the 200g LRN is actually designed for my replica 1858 Remington revolver to be used with the cap and ball loading mechanism, so the base is narrower than the top lube groove, but i sized them to .454 (only sizer i have) so it is just a little big but does not have a taper now and doesn't seem to be a heavy load. the 255g is also sized .454 (same sizer die) and is the lee mold style meant for 45 colt, it has about the same recoil as the 200LRN & 5g BE load does and shoots well also, no overpressure signs i can see, these are not high end loads though right?



i just got my lee 200g LSWC TL mold (for 45 ACP) last night and cast up 200+ to test, lubed with the rooster jacket i just got last night also, it will be interesting to see if the RJ is better than the lee alox gunk

 

[loadedround]

It is my opinion that 45 ACP +P loads are not shown in the loading manuals is simply the fact of increasing the powder charge in this round to increase velocity much over 850 fps will accomplish nothing more except to batter a quality 1911 or clone to pieces in a very short time by the slide action beating on the frame each cycle. The 45 ACP is an excellent defensive round with a maximum load in almost any bullet style, be be it a RN,SWC, or HP. Even the basic target load with the 200 gr LSWC is a decent defensive load. BTW, I would suggest you be careful with those sized .454" bullets. Most lead bullets for the 45 ACP are sized at .452". They may swage down and be perfectly ok in your pistol, but please be aware of pressure signs. Again JMHO!

 

[1858rem]

after 70 rounds i had slight leading in the last 2" or so of the barrel so i dont think the .002 hurt really, im keeping pretty well below max though

 

[Walkalong]

Leading in the last part of the barrel indicates not enough/right lube, or the bullet is a tad too soft for the velocity.

I would also recommend getting a .452 sizer. Rooster Jacket is good stuff. I think you will like it.

Standard .45 ACP pressure is 19,900 and +P is 21,000 or something close

No sense or need to go over 830/850 FPS with 230 gr. IMHO.

 

[1858rem]

anyone else shoot the 255g RNFP in 45 ACP? if so what load do you use? i imagine bowling pin guys might have a load or two....

 

[Slamfire]

For me, recoil energy transferred to the frame is my most important worry for my M1911's.

The Colt Combat Elite pictured below peened its frame out after 3000 rounds. It was a stock box pistol. Rounds were not +P. The guide rod was peening the frame. In my opinion the slide/lugs/frame geometry was off and the pistol was experiencing early unlock. The slide recoiled at a too high level of speed and bashed the frame through the guide rod.

Adding an extra heavy mainspring and shock buffs reduced the peening, but it continued. (Now I am a believer in shock buffs ) As the pistol was new I sent it back to Colt under warranty. They replaced the frame, but not the slide or barrel and did not fix the problem. The pistol continued to peen the new frame.

So I sent it off to Wilson Arms, had them install a new barrel and other things, and since they know how to build M1911’s that work, my Combat Master pistol functions as it should and is now an excellent pistol.

But what I learned from this is that excessive slide speeds are harmful to a M1911. That is why fast burning powders with low residual breech pressures are best in this pistol. (W231 and Bullseye!) Slow burning powders, such as Blue Dot, have a high residual breech pressure and accelerate the slide too fast on unlock.

If your M1911 ejects brass an excessive distance, (for me 20 feet is too far) your pressures are too high. If your M1911 experiences frame peening, your pressures are too high. If your reloads blow through the side wall of the case, your pressures are too high.


Based on my experience, My 230 grain practice loads have a self imposed not to exceed 800 fps average. (Which was the velocity of the original 1910 45 ACP rounds) Some of the nicest shooting loads I have used were just around 730 fps.

For self defense, use factory and live with the recoil.

.




I have no desire to shoot 250/255's in any M1911. If you want to do that, let me suggest a 45 Auto rim or a nice 45 LC.

This M625 45LC Moutain gun shoots 250/255's very well.

 

[Walkalong]

I have shot a lot of 250 Gr Raniers in .45 ACP, with medium charges of W-231, with no problems.

That said, SlamFire1's points are extremely good ones. The .45 was designed to operate at low pressure with fast powders. Going outside those limits stress things, sometimes to the breaking point.

The .45 ACP works so well within its limits, why push the envelope?

 

[1858rem]

well suprisingly the 255's shot best at 750-775fps with the minimum charge, i have hundreds left but i think ill reduce the load to 600 fps for fun if i use more, 200g LSWC are a b!t(h to get to chamber right, then i decided to size them with my only sizing die, that i thought was .454, but maybe it is .452, i dunno, however it did size the bullets down enough to load correctly and chamber well, before i was getting a ring of lead at the case mouth upon seating/crimp no that is pretty well fixed......umm my flaring/powder-thru die does not look like it bells the mouth enough, anyone care to post pics of what a flared 45ACP case should look like,and a seated lee TL SWC too if possible? i only got 4 SWC to shoot and they grouped well and went 850fps with 5.0g trailboss, next im trying 4g bullseye and the SWC....

 

[Walkalong]

the 255's shot best at 750-775fps

That was the range I shot the 250 Raniers in.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I got the impression from the OP he thinks velocity is the factor that defines a +P load, it's not. Pressure defines whether or not a load is considered standard or +P and that's set by SAAMI in the USA. For the .45 Auto the current SAAMI limits are 21,000 PSI for a standard .45 Auto and 23,000 PSI for a .45 Auto +P. Of course with more pressure you usually get more velocity to a point but you can't use velocity as a gauge. You can achieve greater velocities depending upon the powder used without pushing the pressure limits. A round with less velocity using a fast powder might exceed the pressure limits where as a round using a slower powder producing greater velocity might not.

 

[1858rem]

i understand velocity is not the only factor and +p is based on pressure, but i cannot measure pressure and i do have a chrono......


how about the 230g+ bullet loads in the 2nd edition lee manual? i was going but the 250g load data using 6g of AA#5 and got 750-775fps, a little higher than expected with my cast 255g boolits, means higher pressure too? 5"bbl RIA..

 

[Galil5.56]

"i understand velocity is not the only factor and +p is based on pressure, but i cannot measure pressure and i do have a chrono......"

949 fps with 5 grains BE, 200 grain cast, 5" barrel... That's WAY faster than I ever got with various 200 grain cast bullets. I have no doubt the pressure is just peachy, it's the speed considering the components/weights that don't compute with my experience, even considering burn rate tolerance.

 

[1858rem]

949 fps with 5 grains BE, 200 grain cast, 5" barrel... That's WAY faster than I ever got with various 200 grain cast bullets.

well.... my previous 200g bullet was designed for a cap and ball revolver so it was probably oversized even though i ran it through a .454 sizing die.... im getting ready to test my new SWC molded boolits and see what velocity/accuracy i get

 

[Galil5.56]

Maybe the C&B mold is calibrated for pure lead, and casting light, or real light depending on alloy?... Weigh any of these bullets before lubing?

 

[1858rem]

probably is for pure lead....i cannot weigh them,i have a lee 110grain scale, well i could cut them into small pieces

 

[Steve C]

i was starting to wonder if +p loads are designated as so in a separate area of the book...... but none of my books are like this for 45 acp, so i was thinking maybe +p loads are just what is listed as max load?

SAAMI pressure standards are 45 Auto 21,000 psi, 45 Auto + P 23,000 psi. As these are maximize pressures any load over 21,000 psi is considered +P. Most standard loaded ammo does not reach the maximum standard pressure and the same can be said regarding the +P level too.

Any load, regardless of pressure that reaches the velocity of a +P load will increase wear on a handgun as its primarily not the pressure that's producing the wear from recoil, its the momentum and energy created by the bullets velocity and weight. A perfectly standard velocity load with a jacketed bullet will not provide any more wear and tear on you pistol than a factory load but replace the jacketed bullet with a lead bullet thus increase the velocity by 10% or more and you'll be creating 10% more stress on your handgun.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

"But what I learned from this is that excessive slide speeds are harmful to a M1911. That is why fast burning powders with low residual breech pressures are best in this pistol. (W231 and Bullseye!) Slow burning powders, such as Blue Dot, have a high residual breech pressure and accelerate the slide too fast on unlock."



this is correct - the 'pressure level'. some powders are more suitable to the .45acp and others that are 'low pressure' rounds as designed. useing slower powders and heavier or cast slugs can and likely will cause problems.
all sorts of problems arise when the handloader starts going beyond the data reccomendations for pressure levels.
try Red dot in your .45acp w/cast slugs for a pleasant surprise.

 

[gunslinger720]

using a 45 acp with a 230 grain bullet weather its a hardball or a JHP 850 fps is plenty of velocity in target even lower is better letting the pistol not beat itself to death for paper 750 to 800 fps is plenty. as far as defense a good hollow Point like Hydro shock, Gold dots, or the golden sabre at 850 is no battering the gun and plenty for two legged game. when I want more I use my sig 40 S&W with a 165 grn JHP at about 1000 fps or my 10mm with the same 180 grn JHP at 1200 fps or my 44 with a JHP 240grn at 1200 fps I guess what I'm getting at is if you want more get the Gun thats Made to handle high pressures thats why theres so many different calibers and Pistols or Revolvers for the reason you need higherFPS amd Muzzle Energy without prematurely beating up a gun that wasn't made for that pressure. I don't think my Kimber 45 ever seen over 800fps and no more than 18 to 19000 psi's