bushmaster1313
Member
How close do I need to be to stop an intruder with 12 ga. No. 8 target loads, the kind I use for shooting trap?
What is range of 12 ga. No. 8 target loads against an intruder?
- Thread starter bushmaster1313
- Start date
- Status
Not sure why you would want to use such a load for SD, but if it will work at all then it will work inside self defense ranges... (about 10-15 yards). The full payload of the shell will be in a close enough pattern to hit the intruder with 90percent or more of the shot (likely closer to 100percent at that range) and should carry enough energy to get to reach the vitals depending on the shot placement... but it is all about IF and SHOULD with that load....
nobody wants to get shot with any shotgun load, but for self/home defense, get a better load.
nobody wants to get shot with any shotgun load, but for self/home defense, get a better load.
Lack of adequate penetration might be a real issue especially if his arm gets in the way and you don't get the opportunity to hit him square in the chest or face/head. It is generally accepted that even at close ranges, smaller shot tends to leave shallow, torn, gruesome looking wounds but may fail to reach important internal organs, the destruction of which is required to stop a determined assailant who is hellbent on killing you.
hammerklavier
Member
Since only a very close shot with bird shot is likely to kill or incapacitate, the answer to your question is "It depends on the intruder."
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
As is so often the case with questions here, the answer is pretty much the #1 default answer:
It depends...
1) on the range involved
2) on how the barrel patterns
3) on where the pattern strikes the BG
4) on what the BG is wearing, holding, etc.
5) on how determined the BG is, how sober he is, etc.
Inside 10 feet or so it will probably do about as well as it's going to do. Ten feet out to 25 feet, more is going to depend on the barrel/choke to keep a pattern tight enough to be effective. From 25 feet on out IMHO it's going to begin to get iffy. At ranges where the shot charge hits as pretty much one lump, it is going to be more effective. Out beyond where the pattern begins to open up, it's going to be less effective as a rule, depending on what's hit and how determined the BG is. The question is, will it stop a BG from doing what he was doing that caused you to shoot him in the first place? And the only answer is, there's no way to tell in advance.
I've seen people who were killed DRT with birdshot. I've seen people who were shot with birdshot and were basically only POed in the extreme. Someone I know with experience in corrections once had charge of a prisoner who had been shot in the belly with a load of birdshot while perpetrating a robbery. Most of his digestive system was gone, and he eventually died in prison from complications despite everything they could do to keep him alive.
Yes, birdshot might work OK for self defense in a shotgun. Then again, it might not. Would I count on it? Personally, no, I wouldn't. I don't even count on the full velocity (1325 fps) 9-pellet 00 buckshot loads we keep in the house guns here. I know better than to count on anything I can fire from the shoulder to be a guaranteed stopper where humans are concerned. I'm going to be ready to shoot again if I have to. And again after that, as long as there is still a target in front of my sights. My favorite shotgun instructor, Louis Awerbuck, only shoots slugs. He says he isn't smart enough to keep up with more than one kind of shotgun ammo.
fwiw,
lpl
It depends...
1) on the range involved
2) on how the barrel patterns
3) on where the pattern strikes the BG
4) on what the BG is wearing, holding, etc.
5) on how determined the BG is, how sober he is, etc.
Inside 10 feet or so it will probably do about as well as it's going to do. Ten feet out to 25 feet, more is going to depend on the barrel/choke to keep a pattern tight enough to be effective. From 25 feet on out IMHO it's going to begin to get iffy. At ranges where the shot charge hits as pretty much one lump, it is going to be more effective. Out beyond where the pattern begins to open up, it's going to be less effective as a rule, depending on what's hit and how determined the BG is. The question is, will it stop a BG from doing what he was doing that caused you to shoot him in the first place? And the only answer is, there's no way to tell in advance.
I've seen people who were killed DRT with birdshot. I've seen people who were shot with birdshot and were basically only POed in the extreme. Someone I know with experience in corrections once had charge of a prisoner who had been shot in the belly with a load of birdshot while perpetrating a robbery. Most of his digestive system was gone, and he eventually died in prison from complications despite everything they could do to keep him alive.
Yes, birdshot might work OK for self defense in a shotgun. Then again, it might not. Would I count on it? Personally, no, I wouldn't. I don't even count on the full velocity (1325 fps) 9-pellet 00 buckshot loads we keep in the house guns here. I know better than to count on anything I can fire from the shoulder to be a guaranteed stopper where humans are concerned. I'm going to be ready to shoot again if I have to. And again after that, as long as there is still a target in front of my sights. My favorite shotgun instructor, Louis Awerbuck, only shoots slugs. He says he isn't smart enough to keep up with more than one kind of shotgun ammo.
fwiw,
lpl
devildog32713
Member
Are you facing off with "Tiny" from the Philly Mafia? Or a 5'5'' chinese laundromat guy who wasn't payed in full? Buckshot, Slugs, bigger bird shot (such as "T" and up) is better, for penetration purposes.
How big is your house?
There are very few places where I have a range of more than 30 feet. There is not much pattern at that range.
No 4 shot in a game load may be a better choice if limited penetration of walls is a factor. I have that loaded in my SD shotgun, On the Tac-Star I have a mix of buckshot and slugs.
If you need to engage someone through a wall or door you need more horsepower.
Don
There are very few places where I have a range of more than 30 feet. There is not much pattern at that range.
No 4 shot in a game load may be a better choice if limited penetration of walls is a factor. I have that loaded in my SD shotgun, On the Tac-Star I have a mix of buckshot and slugs.
If you need to engage someone through a wall or door you need more horsepower.
Don
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Bushmaster, it's going to be darn close. Once the shot begins to spread, effectiveness drops off really fast, especially with anything smaller than #4s. I am a big proponent of lighter than buckshot loads for apartments and other areas where over penetration is a concern. I would not use #8s. FWIW, I have some #2s for my limited penetration areas. I'd strongly advise you to get some of the larger shot sizes for that mission.
As I was typing, it occurs to me that you may be thinking of a self defense application while carrying a shotgun for recreation. In that case, I'd think about 10 feet for a mammal, longer ranges aim for the face and hope you get a optics kill.
As I was typing, it occurs to me that you may be thinking of a self defense application while carrying a shotgun for recreation. In that case, I'd think about 10 feet for a mammal, longer ranges aim for the face and hope you get a optics kill.
DrLaw
Member
Most sports shops in a major midwest city used to sell birdshot to certain folks who came in looking for shotgun shells but not having anything that flew or on four legs to hunt. As a result, for a long time, there were shootings, but few murders.
That said, I did the sentencing of a fellow who shot another at close range with a single shot (with bird shot) and killed him dead. As the ambulance crew hefted the body onto a stretcher, a pistol fell out of his waistband.
As for the shooter. He leaped onto the car the dead guy and the woman he was with were in, cracked open the single shot, put in another shell and literally winged her (hit her in the arm) as she was about to get around the side of a house and relative line-of-sight safety.
The shooter only had one arm, and had to put the gun between his legs to hold it for loading/unloading.
Not bad shooting. He got 40 years, iirc.
The Doc is out now.
That said, I did the sentencing of a fellow who shot another at close range with a single shot (with bird shot) and killed him dead. As the ambulance crew hefted the body onto a stretcher, a pistol fell out of his waistband.
As for the shooter. He leaped onto the car the dead guy and the woman he was with were in, cracked open the single shot, put in another shell and literally winged her (hit her in the arm) as she was about to get around the side of a house and relative line-of-sight safety.
The shooter only had one arm, and had to put the gun between his legs to hold it for loading/unloading.
Not bad shooting. He got 40 years, iirc.
The Doc is out now.
LRS_Ranger
Member
Well, I would say that it doesn't have as much recoil, so you will at least be able to pump out more shots faster. Unless you are REALLY worried about over-penetration why not go with something a little bigger?
Shadow 7D
Member
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm
Covers alot of the variables, if not in that chapter, they do bird shot a few times, I believe that it still penetrates walls, very interesting site.
Covers alot of the variables, if not in that chapter, they do bird shot a few times, I believe that it still penetrates walls, very interesting site.
Until I find evidence to the contrary, I'm thinking #1 buck is the ideal HD load. Make that number one and two, then follow with 00 all the way. In the course training I'm doing now, the recoil is facilitating the racking so it's "boom" shik-shik "boom" etc. If you can get one round off, you can get two.
Shadow 7D
Member
Well here is Box o Truths build wall (not just plaster board, and spaced)
Link is to the last page, the first wall stopped #8 birdshot, um the cup penetrated further than the shot did....http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm
Link is to the last page, the first wall stopped #8 birdshot, um the cup penetrated further than the shot did....http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14_4.htm
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
When it comes to shutting down a human assailant, the defender who has a firearm has two things to accomplish- projectile placement and penetration. With both those things accomplished, the defender is golden. With only one of the two, or neither of the two accomplished, the defender is in trouble.
Lots of people tend to think of a shotgun as the ultimate stopper where attacks from humans are concerned. Well, sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. As I said earlier- I'm going to be prepared to shoot again as long as necessary, even with a shotgun.
Though anecdotes do not equal data, I often point out the medical examiner's report at http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html as an example of the requirements for both placement and penetration where even a shotgun is concerned. Peripheral hits or non-penetrating hits, even with a shotgun, are not going to cut it. It should be apparent that someone who could inflict not just one but two shotgun contact wounds upon himself and then go on to finish the job with a third shot, could do away with another person just as handily if he decided to do so.
fwiw,
lpl
Lots of people tend to think of a shotgun as the ultimate stopper where attacks from humans are concerned. Well, sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. As I said earlier- I'm going to be prepared to shoot again as long as necessary, even with a shotgun.
Though anecdotes do not equal data, I often point out the medical examiner's report at http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html as an example of the requirements for both placement and penetration where even a shotgun is concerned. Peripheral hits or non-penetrating hits, even with a shotgun, are not going to cut it. It should be apparent that someone who could inflict not just one but two shotgun contact wounds upon himself and then go on to finish the job with a third shot, could do away with another person just as handily if he decided to do so.
fwiw,
lpl
DFW1911
Member
W.E.G.
Member
I doubt there are many home invaders who would still be in the fight after taking a well-centered 12 gauge blast of #8's in the head at 10 yards or less.
mgmorden
Member
Birdshot outside of a short range is a VERY light load. I've shot ducks (with #2 steel shot, but still same general class of ammo) from a pretty short distance and had the pellet not even penetrate through the head. That's less than an inch.
Now, in reality, most people unless they have a gun too (and even if they do usually) are gonna run like hell if they're struck with bird shot, but it's not going to put them down. A good load of 00 though will drop man or beast in their tracks. I've killed many deer with 00 on dog drives through the years. The majority of them rolled over right where they stood. As a matter of fact the only deer I've killed with buckshot that ran any significant distance was shot with 20ga #3 buckshot, not 12ga 00. Even that one only made it 75 yards or so.
Now, in reality, most people unless they have a gun too (and even if they do usually) are gonna run like hell if they're struck with bird shot, but it's not going to put them down. A good load of 00 though will drop man or beast in their tracks. I've killed many deer with 00 on dog drives through the years. The majority of them rolled over right where they stood. As a matter of fact the only deer I've killed with buckshot that ran any significant distance was shot with 20ga #3 buckshot, not 12ga 00. Even that one only made it 75 yards or so.
LeonCarr
Member
If you must use #8s, putting the barrel of the shotgun on the badguy's chest and pulling the trigger should be the maximum range.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
bushmaster1313
Member
My question was based on curiosity after reading something I found on a Google search which said that out to 10 yards No. 8 was like a column of lead.
I would use 00 if by myself indoors or No. 4 if other friendlies are inside.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
About ten years back, I ran a series of shots from a couple of 12 gauges. I think it's stickied on TFL - shotgun section. Numerous other folks chimed in and the old "rule of thumb" of 1 inch of spread per yard of range sure seemed validated out to 5 yards or so. After that choke really kicked in and now with good hardened shot and Power Flite wads (IIRC), your effective range may increase.
Perhaps they meant ten feet?
Perhaps they meant ten feet?
Deltaboy1984
Member
Go up to #4 shot + and leave the #8 for the Clays. If Recoil is a issue go to a 16 or 20 gauge.
bushmaster1313
Member
I agree about using buck shot (that's what it's made for)
Just curious about the birdshot
The Lone Haranguer
Member
Perhaps you could try your shotgun and load at various ranges, progressively moving the target further out until the patterns stop becoming one big hole, at which point you could consider this your max range.
- Status
