What is the most deadly .22LR round?
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Vern Humphrey
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Trading hits with a .22 for hits with a .45 is not a good business deal.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Why do these threads always deteriorate into a .22 bash session even when the original poster asks us not to do that?
Why can't you people just answer the question?
People who have no self control and can't stick to what the thread author asked for bugs me to no end. If you can't comply with the authors requests just don't post.
Last week one of the Mods had to lock one of my threads because someone wouldn't stop arguing when told by the Mod to stop changing the caliber of the gun being recommended. I just don't get it!!!
Jorg Nysgerrig
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Do think it is of valure to the poster to think that a .22 from a handgun at short distances is as effective as a .223 at longer distances? I'd like to think the fine folks on the board care enough about educating others then to let that go.
That's the same when someone compares the ballistics of a .22LR from a rifle with that a .380 handgun and draws the conclusion that a .22LR handgun will be as effective.
I think it is intellectually dishonest to answer questions in a vacuum. If someone asks, "Hey, I want to make a hole in my wall to run this wire. Should I use a this marble bookend or a crescent wrench to pound the nail through to make a whole?. And don't tell me to get another tool, I already have a marble book and crescent wrench.", the correct answer is still, "You really should find a drill for that."
The original poster is operating under the notion that if he pratices with a .22 enough, he will be able to more effectively dispatch an attacker than someone armed with a 9mm. Not only that, but as I mentioned above, later he says that a .22LR and a .223 are "about the same." Shall we allow someone who is admitting he is new to guns to operate under this delusion or shall we do our best to ensure he has the most complete information, both for and against his choices?
I would much rather than a thread provide accurate and complete information that benefits all who read rather than conforming to arbitrary guidelines that may result in someone coming away from the thread with incorrect or incomplete information.
Sure, this thread took a detour; but I think in the end that everyone, the original poster included, probably learned a little something more than they expected. On the other hand, the first reply could have just said, "Use Velocitors or Stingers." and the original poster would be walking around convinced that his handgun was as effective at SD ranges as a military marksman at 200 yards. Hell, even though I disagree with Tostada, he provided some interesting links and caused me to think a bit more about my position.
I suppose I think of a forum as a place for discussion and exploration of topics rather than an simply an answer service. Your mileage may vary.
terry264
Member
I'd go with Velocitors or Quick Shok's myself, also both very accurate.
Add me to the colum that would use a .22 if nothing else was available-- but would much prefer something with a tad more stopping power if my life and my loved ones were on the line.
While anedoctal evidence is not reliable, it has had impact on my confidence in certain firearms for certain purposes. I, personally, can think of two men who have taken a closely fired .22 to the head and lived. I can't say with one (may have been a glancing shot-- or dead on-- I don't know), but I know with absolute certainty that one was shot point blank and with a direct hit in the center of his forehead. I also know that the round in each case was a high velocity .22 Long Rifle Rimfire round. I have no idea on manufacturer or bullet style.
The bullet actually hit his skull and ran under his skin over his head and exited the rear of his head. I remember when it happened, and you can see plainly his scar.
However, I should point out that these two men were not all that evolved and very well may be some kind of throw-back to our Cro-magnon days of thick skulls.
Still, that leans me towards something that can deliver at least 100 grains of lead at a reasonable muzzle energy. But that's just me.
-- John
While anedoctal evidence is not reliable, it has had impact on my confidence in certain firearms for certain purposes. I, personally, can think of two men who have taken a closely fired .22 to the head and lived. I can't say with one (may have been a glancing shot-- or dead on-- I don't know), but I know with absolute certainty that one was shot point blank and with a direct hit in the center of his forehead. I also know that the round in each case was a high velocity .22 Long Rifle Rimfire round. I have no idea on manufacturer or bullet style.
The bullet actually hit his skull and ran under his skin over his head and exited the rear of his head. I remember when it happened, and you can see plainly his scar.
However, I should point out that these two men were not all that evolved and very well may be some kind of throw-back to our Cro-magnon days of thick skulls.
Still, that leans me towards something that can deliver at least 100 grains of lead at a reasonable muzzle energy. But that's just me.
-- John
sm
member
Original Post and reasons for asking are none of my business.
Now if the original member chooses to PM me, and share fine.
Why do I feel this way?
Because I have assisted folks that the only firearm they could use was a .22 is why.
Preacherman is a respected member with credentials.
Doctors Orders after surgery, NO recoil. He had no other choice but .22 lr.
I too have assisted with folks limited by Doctors Orders to NOT shoot anything with recoil.
One lady, used to be a great Trap Shooter in her day.
Osteo so bad she had to quit driving. Doctor said if she shut the car door too hard, or shut her trunk too hard, she could break her back.
She stepped out of bed one morning, and broke her foot.
She uses Marlin 60s with 40 gr lrn. Win X22lr or CCI Mini Mags. She will hit a golf ball every time on a good day, a tennis ball on a bad day.
Just one example.
So I am in the minority around here when it comes to some guns and some calibers.
Then again all I can share are MY experiences and observations.
My experiences and observations DO include physically limited folks born with these limits, limits suffered from injury, accident, burns, from permanent to temporary.
One person broke both wrists , messed up both hands, and broke one arm falling on ice.
6' 3", and just stepped onto the porch to get the paper.
He could do not anything for himself.
Not even unzip his pants, brush his teeth, feed himself. His wife and kids, and friends and neighbors had to do for him.
In time, he could use a Marlin 60, weak handed. He really busted himself up good, more than one surgery.
So I am a little hesitant to fuss at some folks using the guns they choose to use, in the calibers they choose.
Like a .22 handgun.
None of my business, I respect privacy, and there just might be a real serious reason why a person asks the questions they do.
Anyone of us in the blink of an eye might find ourselves physically limited.
Now if the original member chooses to PM me, and share fine.
Why do I feel this way?
Because I have assisted folks that the only firearm they could use was a .22 is why.
Preacherman is a respected member with credentials.
Doctors Orders after surgery, NO recoil. He had no other choice but .22 lr.
I too have assisted with folks limited by Doctors Orders to NOT shoot anything with recoil.
One lady, used to be a great Trap Shooter in her day.
Osteo so bad she had to quit driving. Doctor said if she shut the car door too hard, or shut her trunk too hard, she could break her back.
She stepped out of bed one morning, and broke her foot.
She uses Marlin 60s with 40 gr lrn. Win X22lr or CCI Mini Mags. She will hit a golf ball every time on a good day, a tennis ball on a bad day.
Just one example.
So I am in the minority around here when it comes to some guns and some calibers.
Then again all I can share are MY experiences and observations.
My experiences and observations DO include physically limited folks born with these limits, limits suffered from injury, accident, burns, from permanent to temporary.
One person broke both wrists , messed up both hands, and broke one arm falling on ice.
6' 3", and just stepped onto the porch to get the paper.
He could do not anything for himself.
Not even unzip his pants, brush his teeth, feed himself. His wife and kids, and friends and neighbors had to do for him.
In time, he could use a Marlin 60, weak handed. He really busted himself up good, more than one surgery.
So I am a little hesitant to fuss at some folks using the guns they choose to use, in the calibers they choose.
Like a .22 handgun.
None of my business, I respect privacy, and there just might be a real serious reason why a person asks the questions they do.
Anyone of us in the blink of an eye might find ourselves physically limited.
well said, sm.
As I said in my post, I would gladly use a .22 if nothing else was available. To clarify, "not available" includes not a viable option as well.
Any means to defend ones self is to be preferred to being a victim.
And considering sm's post, it did occur to me that the two persons I cited would have been VERY unmotivated to continue any activites after their brush with possible death.
-- John
As I said in my post, I would gladly use a .22 if nothing else was available. To clarify, "not available" includes not a viable option as well.
Any means to defend ones self is to be preferred to being a victim.
And considering sm's post, it did occur to me that the two persons I cited would have been VERY unmotivated to continue any activites after their brush with possible death.
-- John
Jorg Nysgerrig
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While I certainly appreciate your sentiment, sm, and would not begrudge someone using a particular firearm out of necessity, I'm not sure that applies to this poster. You see, I tend to check out the previous posts of new members before responding. In this case, the member at hand mentions having small hands and wrists, but is still seeking advice on which .38/.357 to buy. This leads me, along with a couple of other things, to believe that his reasons not due to a physical limitation. However, I could be wrong.
Regardless, even is one is limited in choices, they should be aware of potential and the limitations of their situation if are relying on it for protection.
Regardless, even is one is limited in choices, they should be aware of potential and the limitations of their situation if are relying on it for protection.
+1 The most deadly 22lr round is the one that is shot accurately. I like CCI 40gr mini-mags for killing rabbits and squirrels, but a human is alot bigger, and I personally would NEVER trust my life to a .22 unless I had no other choices. A .22 just doesn't have enough power to stop someone dead in their tracks with anything but a head shot. A .22 is better than nothing, but a .45 would be alot better.How about the one that enters the cranium through an ear, eye socket or the nasal canal and stays inside until it finishes its little dance?
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Bob R
Member
Somebody thinks the .22 has a purpose, and has deployed it at times.
http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm
bob
http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm
bob
Jorg Nysgerrig
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You might want to note that they the purpose they deployed it for was as a "less-lethal" riot-control weapon to "take out the key protest leaders by shooting them in the legs."
Of course, they found it to be "more lethal" than expected when you shot people in the chest with it.
Vern
I subscribe to the theory that actual performance is a matter of technique, drill, practice - and mindset. Not getting taken by surprize is probably fifty to seventy-five percent or more of the game. Subject history and my observation is that on average a great many people are significantly deficient in three or more of the qualifiers, and get taken completely by surprize perhaps fifty or more percent of the time. Thus the matter of a .22 or a 12 gauge becomes of far lesser significance in my opinion.
I do not subcribe to the myth of handgun "stopping power". I like something of the order of the 9x19mm matched with a service size pistol of excellent point, balance and fast handling qualities. Or a 3" to 4" medium frame .38 or 357 revolver. With such a combination I am about as confident as I can be with any handgun. I do place more importance on the point, balance, handling qualities of the piece coupled with speed and accuracy than I do with the actual bore size, bullet weight and cartridge.
And that said, I do not see a suitable .22 as a bad idea at all. The .22, whether pistol, revolver or rifle is easier to master for practical purposes than any other firearm. The pursuit of minute improvements in precision being ultimately the only real challenge remaining. To maximize it's effectiveness I shun the pocket pistols and tiny revolvers, something in the class of the S&W 34 4" or a 4" sport type pistol making better platforms for practical shooting.
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.. ETC
I subscribe to the theory that actual performance is a matter of technique, drill, practice - and mindset. Not getting taken by surprize is probably fifty to seventy-five percent or more of the game. Subject history and my observation is that on average a great many people are significantly deficient in three or more of the qualifiers, and get taken completely by surprize perhaps fifty or more percent of the time. Thus the matter of a .22 or a 12 gauge becomes of far lesser significance in my opinion.
I do not subcribe to the myth of handgun "stopping power". I like something of the order of the 9x19mm matched with a service size pistol of excellent point, balance and fast handling qualities. Or a 3" to 4" medium frame .38 or 357 revolver. With such a combination I am about as confident as I can be with any handgun. I do place more importance on the point, balance, handling qualities of the piece coupled with speed and accuracy than I do with the actual bore size, bullet weight and cartridge.
And that said, I do not see a suitable .22 as a bad idea at all. The .22, whether pistol, revolver or rifle is easier to master for practical purposes than any other firearm. The pursuit of minute improvements in precision being ultimately the only real challenge remaining. To maximize it's effectiveness I shun the pocket pistols and tiny revolvers, something in the class of the S&W 34 4" or a 4" sport type pistol making better platforms for practical shooting.
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shooter1
Member
The deadlest .22LR is the one that hits you in the eye.
str1
str1
For information about the lethality of .22lr in short barrel, you can look this page : http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/22lr/gel22lr.htm
If I would need to use this caliber for defense, I would stay with the traditional 40gr RNL. It give correct penetration. Don't expect big holes from this caliber.
If I would need to use this caliber for defense, I would stay with the traditional 40gr RNL. It give correct penetration. Don't expect big holes from this caliber.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The man who thinks he will get perfect performance in combat is going to die disappointed.
dao said:
When you look at charts like that, you have to remember that a lot of the high-powered .22s like Stinger, Aguila Super Max and Quik Shok are not standard .22 case length. People even end up getting new barrels specifically for Stingers if they're going to shoot them a lot. That's why you see Velocitors recommended so much, because they're probably the most powerful standard .22 LR.
Vern,
There is no such thing as perfect in the temporal world. We should strive for it in order to come as close as we can.
"Combat performance" beyond the physical is psychological. Lacking the proper mindset; panic, leading to a state of physical and mental paralysis under the influence of fear, and it makes little or no difference whatsoever is at your disposal - be it a .22 or a 12.
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There is no such thing as perfect in the temporal world. We should strive for it in order to come as close as we can.
"Combat performance" beyond the physical is psychological. Lacking the proper mindset; panic, leading to a state of physical and mental paralysis under the influence of fear, and it makes little or no difference whatsoever is at your disposal - be it a .22 or a 12.
-----------------------------
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
I agree that if you panic and freeze, it doesn't matter what you have, whether it's a .22 or a 12 gauge. If, however, you do not freeze up, there is a huge difference between a 22 and a 12 gauge. Not that a 22 is worthless, but a 12 gauge is alot more powerful. If you care to test it, my uncle's got some land in Texas with some hogs on it that would love to meet you.
Vern Humphrey
Member
I've never killed a man with a handgun in civilian life (and only two in combat.) But my experience is, expect a great degradation in performace when the chips are down. It would be great if you could count on ten hits -- but odds are you'll only get one (if that), and that one will have to do the job.
That being the case, it doesn't make sense to handicap yourself.
Obviously the .22 isn't going to be as effective as a regular 9mm +P / .40 / .45 JHP will. Nobody's claiming it is (well, not many sane people are).
But if you look at the average guy who runs tens of thousands of rounds through his little .22 plinker with a cutsey little red dot, I'd bet he'd hit more than 1 for 10 "when the chips are down."
But if you look at the average guy who runs tens of thousands of rounds through his little .22 plinker with a cutsey little red dot, I'd bet he'd hit more than 1 for 10 "when the chips are down."
shooter1
Member
But if you look at the average guy who runs tens of thousands of rounds through his little .22 plinker with a cutsey little red dot, I'd bet he'd hit more than 1 for 10 "when the chips are down."
Let's hope he's carrying his plinker with the "cutsey little red dot" when the chips are down!
str1
Let's hope he's carrying his plinker with the "cutsey little red dot" when the chips are down!
str1
Vern Humphrey
Member
Disasters often occur because people plan for them to occur.
The man who carries his plinker with the "cutsey little red dot" as a defensive weapon is planning to have a disaster.
The man who carries his plinker with the "cutsey little red dot" as a defensive weapon is planning to have a disaster.
Vern
I have not had to kill anyone with a handgun; I have had a rifle pointed at my head by someone who took me by surprize at a distance of a few yards. I have also had a good number of near death and serious injury experiences of various types in various circumstances. Some very dynamic, others of a quieter and less strenuous nature, and my own opinion is that seriously impeded performance as a result of a lack of the proper mindset, panic and paralysis is not going to be remedied by using a bigger gun. And these factors along with having mastered the gun concerned along with shooting skills, drills etc are far more significant.
Handicaps come in many forms. If the arguement is that it is performance, in the sense of accurate and effective shooting, an easier to shoot firearm might argueably be the lesser handicap.
I have not had to kill anyone with a handgun; I have had a rifle pointed at my head by someone who took me by surprize at a distance of a few yards. I have also had a good number of near death and serious injury experiences of various types in various circumstances. Some very dynamic, others of a quieter and less strenuous nature, and my own opinion is that seriously impeded performance as a result of a lack of the proper mindset, panic and paralysis is not going to be remedied by using a bigger gun. And these factors along with having mastered the gun concerned along with shooting skills, drills etc are far more significant.
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