What makes a Kalashnikov less accurate than its western counterparts?

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their (sic) built for reliability not so much on accuracy

On what do you base this? Are you repeating the opinion of acknowledged subject matter experts (SMEs), or are you experienced enough to offer an educated opinion of your own?

Extensive shooting certainly is valuable, and leads to one having an informed opinion- what is your opinion based on?

John
 
Here is a quote from an interview with Mikhail Kalashnikov, he states "“I was in the hospital, and a soldier in the bed beside me asked: ‘Why do our soldiers have only one rifle for two or three of our men, when the Germans have automatics?’ So I designed one. I was a soldier, and I created a machine gun for a soldier. It was called an Avtomat Kalashnikova, the automatic weapon of Kalashnikov - AK - and it carried the date of its first manufacture, 1947.”
So What I get from that statement is that he designed a weapon that could throw down a lot of firepower and was quickly produced. Those seem to be his primary goals for the weapon as he didn't mention accuracy
 
The factory slant brake common on 7.62x39mm models hurts accuracy, by yawing the bullet and inducing nutation as it exits the muzzle. Switching from a slant brake to a Phantom or Smith Vortex flash suppressor will generally improve accuracy.

Short sight radius. Adding an optic does wonders.

Huge gas piston, cantilevered gas block, and large mass of moving parts. When the bullet passes by the gas port and the big gas piston launches the heavy bolt carrier assembly, the barrel bending moment is significant (as seen in the video). The slant brake doesn't help. You end up with barrel vibrations that open groups up; the Ruger mini-14 has exactly the same issue. The barrel bending moment from the AR's direct-impingement system, by contrast, is negligible, so you end up with less muzzle whip.

Special care required to benchrest. All that barrel bending moment and barrel vibration will jump the rifle off of a rest if it's supported under the barrel or forward portion of the handguard. Shooting an AK from sandbags, the front bag needs to be as far back as possible, either under the front of the receiver or even under the front of the trigger guard, whatever works. But you need to float the barrel off the rest as much as possible.

Self-fulfilling expectations of low accuracy. Many shooters take an AK capable of 3-4 MOA, shoot 12 MOA with it, and blame the rifle. But because of their low accuracy expectations, they are ignoring the basics and not paying attention to breathing, jerking the trigger, and otherwise shooting poorly in ways that would guarantee 12 MOA out of any rifle.

Is a 7.62x39mm capable of the same level of accuracy as a typical civilian AR-15 flattop? No. But it is capable of accuracy comparable to the average .30-30 lever gun, which it also ballistically resembles.

BTW, most of the "wiggly jiggly" shown in the Discovery Channel video is a loose cleaning rod that looks to have been improperly installed. The other video shows the barrel flex better, but that is not due to loose parts; it is due to the immense forces generated by the gas system, transmitted to the barrel by the cantilevered gas block.

If I could wave a magic wand and banish the Discovery Channel M16-vs-AK clip to Oz, I would. The guy they have shooting the AK couldn't stay on a 200-yard target with an Anschutz bolt gun, if he shoots it as sloppily as he shoots the AK; he slaps the trigger like he's auditioning for a Three Stooges episode. A rack-grade AK should be capable of 8" groups at that range, but he can't even hit a big silhouette target 1 for 5. The commentary regarding the safety/selector is also a bit misinformed.
 
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How many of your bolts are "wiggly jiggly" when locked to the breech? That would be the only "wiggly jiggly" fitment that would effect accura

Does the AK bolt 'lock' into it's receiver? ?? the barrel extension??

You know... it doesn't take a 20/20 visioned rocket physicist atom splittin' lab zombie to realize that the AK just ain't all that: It doesn't shoot accurately compaired to the AR, it's cheaply built although somewhat indestructable, it has a 'wiggly-jiggly' bolt (I really like that, I do!), crappy sights, too short a length of pull (by corn fed farm boy standard), it reeks of and oozes cosmoline, and it is just plain fugly...... But we all love em'! :D
 
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their (sic) built for reliability not so much on accuracy

On what do you base this? Are you repeating the opinion of acknowledged subject matter experts (SMEs), or are you experienced enough to offer an educated opinion of your own?

Extensive shooting certainly is valuable, and leads to one having an informed opinion- what is your opinion based on?

John, such a response cuts both ways. Why criticize, what IMO is the general consensus, without stating your position? Clearly, if you refute that, which would strain credibility IMO, state your opinion and credentials.

You don't need to be an military expert or engineering whiz to recognize:

  • Stamped metal parts cant be made to, or maintain, the tolerances of machined barstock, investment casting, MIM, etc.
  • A key consideration for the design of the AK-47 was the cost to produce. This was likely a reason for the design using stamped parts.
  • While the need for accuracy in most common military situations may not be the foremost consideration, its clearly a benefit in situations in which longer shots are required. This isn't exactly a 'minus'.
  • Civilian AK-47s aren't legally full auto. For semi-auto file, doesn't the accuracy become a greater priority?

Are you going to argue the position that the priority ranking for MK's design didn't favor reliability over accuracy? From an engineering perspective, I'd even go so far as to say that the priorities were:

  1. Cost to produce
  2. Reliability
  3. ...far lower -> accuracy.


I don't claim to be an expert on this. Yet, I'd love to see this refuted.
 
The average Russian infantry soldier (like all other Russian soldiers) recieves 2 weeks of hazing, and being made to clean his units baaracks, beat downs, and fires around 5-10 rds from his weapon, thats basic training to them. The average Russian soldier grows and farms his own food, and fires less rds in 5 years than the average American soldier fires in a day.

The jogged my memory. So what if you hand a world class target rifle to someone, if the military does not spend the time and money teaching the Soldier how to shoot, the inherent accuracy of the platform is wasted.

Currently our GI’s are getting a lot of weapon familiarization. That was not necessarily the case for the first bunch in. Private Jessica could not clear a jam. She said "my gun jammed". And our Cold War era troops, if they got 20 rounds per year to shoot, that was it.

And what about the big wars? My Uncle, 101 Airborne 502 PIR Company F got exactly five rounds of familiarization with his weapon prior to dropping in Normandy. If he had not been a country boy shooting rabbits, squirrels, what not, he would have been totally ignorant of firearms. Incidentally, his primary weapon was the 1919 Light Machine gun. He had so little training that he did not know not to leave a round in the chamber. He and a bud were setting the weapon up in France, with a belt in the thing, and they bumped it on the ground. His bud had a finger on the muzzle. That was shot off.

I mentioned this to a club member, and he told me his Dad landed in France having fired zero shots from his weapon. He was transferred to the infantry from some support group, given a weapon, and landed on the beaches of France. No weapon zero and no training in the weapon. What was his hit probability?

So all of this discussion about weapon accuracy assumes the troops are trained to a level where they can use it. Well history shows, if the guys are not practicing on their own time, they are not going to get the trigger time in the military to be an accomplished shot.
 
It is generally well known that Kalshnikovs (and I include AK-47, AKM, and AK-74's) are less accurate than their western counterparts, e.g., M16, SA80, SIG550, etc.

This of course does not mean that the Kalashnikov is a lesser assault rifle (quite the opposite in fact) but it would be good to know what areas of Kalashnikov's design or build/production could be improved to improve accuracy without damaging its overall excellence as an assault rifle (i.e., without damaging its reliability).

The reasons are numerous, and mostly it's the fitment and quality of the materials used.

You can also blame the ammo normally used, it's about as accurate as a hand full of BB's out of a sling shot.

The AK series was supposed to be all stamped steel,
But the 'Soviet Union' didn't have the abilities to even form sheet metal correctly,
--OR to produce sheet metal that would take the forming process without stressing/cracking/breaking for several years,
So the receivers we milled out of solid blocks of steel for quite a while.

During the second World War, the infrastructure was virtually obliterated, and other than for a few crude tanks and stuff,
The ability to produce much of anything else was retarded for several years.

Also, Stalin ('Papa Joe') was real big on executing all the educated types, engineers, designers, anyone with higher education was usually treated like prisoners or executed because he felt that 'Academics' were dangerous to his rule... (and he was correct)

The results were he had a substandard design, building, machining, and production facilities even before WW II, so he would up fighting WW II with WW I rifles, cannons, artillery pieces, tanks, ect.
If it hadn't been for 'Allied' support, they would be speaking German right now!

After WW II it was all about acquiring 'Allied' technologies.
Jet engine designs from Britain, Aircraft designs from USA,
Wheeled & Track Vehicles from USA and Germany,
And small arms from Germany,
And, of course, the atomic bomb from the USA.

So much effort was spent in copying the US B-29 for a delivery system,
And so much effort was put into producing a A-bomb of their own I'm surprised that the AK-47 developed as fast as it did!
Stalin let MILLIONS starve & freeze to death after WW II just to develop the A-bomb and developed aircraft from the German and American aircraft that were 'Obtained' during the war.

The AK was made mostly from melted down tank and armored vehicle wrecks in the beginning.
Huge amounts of refined steel were left behind after the war, and they were used for making the first production runs of AK rifles...

Steel strength was 'Questionable' at best,
So they simply used MORE STEEL to keep the receivers & barrels from coming unglued.

Mikhail Kalashnikov once said that a higher velocity round was intended, but reliable barrels couldn't be made light enough,
And the USSR couldn't produce the modern powders reliably at the time, so he settled for about 2,000 FPS and a lighter weight bullet than he originally intended.

Later, after Stalin died and the USSR was up on it's feet again, the AK got it's better barrel and stamped steel receiver.

Newer, threaded barrels put into older machined steel block receivers are more accurate.

Older barrels have VERY crude rifling, with VERY large tolerances, so they don't control the bullet very well.

Later barrels are MUCH better quality, actually 'Ordnance' steel, and the rifling got much better with time.

The bolts are loose & sloppy, and NEVER can seat in the same place twice, so there is no repeatability possible.
Mikhail Kalashnikov said this was so the bolt didn't hang up or jam on carbon, sand, rust on the bolt/barrel, ect.

But in actuality, it was because the Russians simply didn't produce milling machines, or cutting tools for the rifle plants that were capable of making fine quality cuts.

Copper and Lead were SCARCE in post war Russia (and the rest of the USSR) so most bullets were STEEL CORE, with a copper wash jacket or thin copper jacket.
The steel was REMARKABLY hard on the rifling in the barrel,
And the steel cases were VERY hard on the chambers, eroding away places where the steel cases impacted the chambers when the fresh round loads.

You also have to think about primers and powder.
Most Russian 'Commercial' grade ammo will produce a 500 FPS (or more) velocity difference between rounds.
REAL HARD to make anything accurate when you can't determine the speed/drop of the bullet!

Bullet cores are often roll formed...
Meaning they can be 'Off Round', actually lopsided,
They can be MUCH heavier on one side than the other side of the bullet, making it wobble badly in flight.
Russian military surplus ammo is REALLY bad about having lopsided cores pressed into copper jackets to make them look 'Round'...

You have to remember that Russia is still producing CORROSIVE primers and CORROSIVE powder!
Powder is often MIXED in the Russian cases! Something you should NEVER do!

Anyway, just some history, and some insight into the Russian way of doing things...
 
I'm going to say most of it is the shooter, and shooters who seem to like to make excuses. :)

If you cant make good hits on a man sized target out to 300 yards with an AK, its not the guns fault.
 
Besides the unlocked bolt to breach face, and the heavy recoil and barrel whip, it also has to do with the largely of centered bolt carrier and cocking handle hence the need for the largely off centered slant muzzle break.
 
This "untrained" meme with regards to Soviet soldiers is an enormous pile of leftover Cold War bee-ess. I have numerous friends and family who served in the Soviet Army from the closing days of WWII right up to the dissolution of the USSR itself. They soldiered, they did not farm. To this day, they are quite capable of field stripping, reassembling, and accurately firing the weapons with which they were trained.
If we had ever actually gone toe-to-toe with the Sovs, any US personnel who went into the fight expecting to slaughter a horde of spraying-and-praying primitive screwheads would have died with a surprised look on their faces.
I'm not going to argue the point with chairborne rangers. I know these people personally and I've seen what they can do with an AK, an SKS, or a Makarov. They have more than proven to me that an AK is more than sufficiently accurate in the hands of trained personnel.
 
Clearly, if you refute that, which would strain credibility IMO, state your opinion and credentials.

I'm not trying to "refute" it. I *am* tired of people repeating internet rumor or "common knowledge" that may or may not be true without any relevant personal knowledge, or even taking the care to state upon what their opinion is based.

I mean, crap, we didn't even get a "the common consensus is..." from this person. Does he own a firearm? If he owns some sort of AK pattern, is he experienced enough to know if inaccuracy seen from his AK is due an intrinsic fault or due to poor shooting habits? The point is, we don't know. What makes his opinion valuable?

Only educated opinions are valuable. If I see Art E. post, I know he's shot umpteen jillion firearms, including being present at the beginning of at least one shooting sport. If I see Jeff White post, I know he has an entire career's worth of soldiering and training experience. Who is this guy, and why should I listen?

Get my point?

Personally, I've owned (IIRC) 3 AK-pattern rifles, but think I've only fired 500 or so rounds through such carbines. I don't think my store of knowledge on these weapons systems is great enough to have a personal opinion, especially when compared to the thousands of rounds I've fired through M4s. I believe there are a variety of reasons a ComBlock rifle could be less accurate than a U.S. one, but absent skilled shooters and ammunition that's equivalent, it's hard to get an apples to apples comparison. And I'm just plain damn tired of erroneous "common knowledge".

John
 
I just put a Tech sight and a muzzle brake on my SKS. WOW. makes a LOT of difference, and I think most of it was sight radius.

I think ben ezra summed it up pretty well. Most of what's wrong with an AK for accuracy could be easily trimmed up if the factory were told to do it, and most people never really laid it across a sandbag to see for sure how accurate it is.
 
JShirley
I *am* tired of people repeating internet rumor or "common knowledge" that may or may not be true
without any relevant personal knowledge, or even taking the care to state upon what their opinion is based.

I know what you mean, it's nerve wracking.



My Norinco T56SHTF is very accurate and reliable. I can run it with a sound suppressor and a 100 or 75 round drum of 7.62x39 :evil:

M14-DC-AKM-1.jpg
 
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It is generally well known that Kalshnikovs (and I include AK-47, AKM, and AK-74's) are less accurate than their western counterparts, e.g., M16, SA80, SIG550, etc

interesting that you included, under "western counterpart", a gun base on the Kalshniko action. the Sig might well be the ultimate refinement of the AK design...it's competition would be the Finish Valmet and the Israeli Galil which are more direct decendents and surely as accurate as any AR.

so seeing that a AK base rifle is every bit as accurate a the AR, i would think the answer it's just a matter of ammo quality and choice of sights
 
If he owns some sort of AK pattern, is he experienced enough to know if inaccuracy seen from his AK is due an intrinsic fault or due to poor shooting habits? The point is, we don't know. What makes his opinion valuable?

He's owned a Saiga for a whole week now :evil:
 
The reason the AK series of weapons are less accurate than American and Western European battle rifles and assault rifles is that the Soviets had a different theory of infantry tactics than the West at the time of the invention of the AK-47. While the AK-47 is NOT technically a submachine gun, the AK-47 was fielded by an army that during World War Two was an extremely sub-gun heavy army. The Red Army had whole battalions where every single person in the outfit was issued with a PPsh. As far as I know the Americans and the Brits didn't have whole units armed with Stens and Grease Guns. Like a sub-gun, the AK-was designed to be fired most of the time in full auto, making it a kind of super-submachine gun. M-16's, on the other hand were meant to be used in full auto only during what the Army in the seventies and eighties was calling "final protective fire." Because the M-16 was supposed to be used 90% in semi-auto it HAD to be a more accurate weapon. Some folks say AK's have an inferior sighting system. That would only be true if you were using it in semi-auto most of the time. Comparing AK-47's/AKM's with the M-16 is like comparing apples to oranges because of the different tactical doctrines of the two armies.
 
Ehhhhh, a rifle that is based on the AK doesn't necessarily share all of its flaws. Like the AK74, the SIG 550 and Galil are going to have heavier barrels (assuming equal thickness), since they are chambered in a .22-caliber round, not a .31-caliber round; add to that the decreased weight of the projectile being fired, and you probably have somewhat less of that awful flexing seen in those videos. At least some of those Western rifles (the SIGs, I believe), have a gas-system re-engineered to have at least adjustment, unlike the system on the AK, which absolutely tears the spent casing out of the chamber. The SIG, Galil, and Valmet all milled receivers, to boot, no? In the 1200 fps video, it looks like a lot of the flexing is happening at the joint of the trunnion and the receiver, which is undoubtedly better designed in the Western derivatives, along with having a much stiffer receiver.
 
H20Man: Ever run that Norinco on decent handloads? What sort of 10-shot groups can that shoot with brass cases, BTHP, and tuned handloads?


Any MOA AKs out there? Any 3/4 MOA AKs out there?
 
I'm not trying to "refute" it. I *am* tired of people repeating internet rumor or "common knowledge" that may or may not be true without any relevant personal knowledge, or even taking the care to state upon what their opinion is based.

I mean, crap, we didn't even get a "the common consensus is..." from this person. Does he own a firearm? If he owns some sort of AK pattern, is he experienced enough to know if inaccuracy seen from his AK is due an intrinsic fault or due to poor shooting habits? The point is, we don't know. What makes his opinion valuable?

Only educated opinions are valuable. If I see Art E. post, I know he's shot umpteen jillion firearms, including being present at the beginning of at least one shooting sport. If I see Jeff White post, I know he has an entire career's worth of soldiering and training experience. Who is this guy, and why should I listen?

Get my point?

Personally, I've owned (IIRC) 3 AK-pattern rifles, but think I've only fired 500 or so rounds through such carbines. I don't think my store of knowledge on these weapons systems is great enough to have a personal opinion, especially when compared to the thousands of rounds I've fired through M4s. I believe there are a variety of reasons a ComBlock rifle could be less accurate than a U.S. one, but absent skilled shooters and ammunition that's equivalent, it's hard to get an apples to apples comparison. And I'm just plain damn tired of erroneous "common knowledge".

I get it. I'd bet 10% of my posts debate blatent mistruths posted.

I don't think it is realistic to expect you're going to get posts from a resurrected John Moses Browning, or an AK-interested Tony Boyer on a public forum. Nor would I expect the opinions of every soldier, gunsmith, or educated expert would necessarily be anything that I'd assume as fact without consideration of reason, context, or potential bias.

I figure you were just having a bad day and blasted a poster with 'xbox' in his name for stating what, IMO, is the common consensus. Can you expect anybody who has picked up an AK and looked at it, let alone fired it, to think that it's accuracy can rival a Stolle Panda BR Rifle, Cooper, Tubb T2000, Sako TRG, or a HP competition AR?

I'll be skeptical, regardless of the poster, when they tell me thay have a 1/2 MOA AK. Yet I don't think most would doubt claims of a 1/2 MOA custom AR.
 
This was shot at 200 yards with my SAR1 using the iron sights (which also have a slight cant). Ammo was Wolf 154 grain SP's. The smaller group at the bottom was fired off a rest to confirm zero, the upper group from a cross legged sitting position at a steady cadence.

ry%3D400.jpg

100 yards, again, cross legged sitting, using Barnaul 125 grain SP's out of my 14" barreled Saiga AK103K using an Aimpoint mounted on an Ultimak.

ry%3D400.jpg

100 yards offhand, same rifle and ammo.

ry%3D400.jpg

One was shot with an AK, the other a Springfield M1A SOCOM. I cant remember which was which at this point. Does it really matter?

ry%3D400.jpg
 
AK103K - That's viable for military purposes. It isn't even fair, however, to judge an AK(s) accuracy potential using Wolf ammo. I'd bet handloads could halve that. I guess what I was looking for was more of a direct comparison.


For example: ARs have many times 'shot clean' on highpower competitions. Has anybody ever, under the same or similar constraints, cleaned their targets with an AK? If such a feat wasn't possible, we're back to the OP's question of why.
 
I figure you were just having a bad day and blasted a poster with 'xbox' in his name for stating what, IMO, is the common consensus

Ruger, I was addressing a poster who has started a lot of threads consistent with the level of thought that went into his choice of user name. :rolleyes: In other words, if you're going to repeat what other people have said, please at least let me know this isn't your opinion, you know? If you have no reasonable way to know something, either don't reply, or give me someone who has reason to know's opinion. And tell me whose opinion it is, and why it's worth listening to.

Our most important mission here is to build a community of good people who know about firearms. When folks who really know almost nothing about firearms post authoritatively, it detracts from the site. It detracts from our mission. And it lowers our collective IQ, as it were. I think we therefore have to really call for a little more accountability from posters, or we will be diminished as a community. All opinions are not equal.

Now, in my- limited- experience, I think a combination of factors often result in reduced accuracy from AK patterns, when compared with something like an AR-15. Quality control standards on many ComBlock or former ComBlock weapons aren't up to Western standards. Despite not having enough range time on AKs, examination will readily show this to be true. Also, ammunition from most countries is just plain not up to U.S. ammunition in quality, and most people these days shoot Russian ammunition in AKs. And for me, especially, I will always do better with peep sights. Just installing Mojo sights on my SAR instantly tightened my groups. U.S. service rifles come with peep sights, which means even a high quality rifle like many Mausers will still be easily bettered by me with a similar U.S. rifle (1903, 1917).

pax,

John
 
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