What the troops are buying with their own money

[johnnymenudo]

Everything this article says seems to ring true with the independent contractors in IRAQ. I wonder if there was some confusion between government and independent employees?

JM

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Unless a head shot is attained, stopping power is about making an enemy lose blood until either their muscles don't work or they can't breath. As already pointed out, it has nothing to do with "knocking them down".

A larger diameter hole will tear a greater area of tissue than a smaller hole. This has little to do with kinetic energy, save for a deeper hole will expidite more bleeding than a shallow hole. If a .40 and a .45 hole were punched into the same mass delivering the same kinetic energy, which subject would bleed out faster?

Well that is the question isn't it? At the rate a human heart pumps out blood, exactly how much difference does 0.05" or 0.10" make in how long it takes for the pressure to reach a level where the body is physiologically incapable of fighting back?

I think if we were to do the math, we would discover that there is effectively no difference between these calibers in real-world practical terms as long as they penetrate deeply enough to reach vital organs.

 

[pete f]

Just talked to a navy DR attached to marines who is out in the field over there, I asked him about this. his response.
Some marines were carrying AK's, The ones that were all seemed to either be instructors or liasons (maybe samething, but his words) with Iraqi DF or ING. These units were all armed with Glocks and AK's. He said at first he carried a Glock 17 that was given him by a marine that was stamps USDOJ. So somewhere a DOJ had a glock and turned it in for a Sig and the Glock ended up in Iraq. He also said there was one unit of Navy personel on his location, he declined to call them SEAL's who had a wide variety of weapons and on occaison used AK's on night ops when it was felt that AK fire would be less conspicous as sound signature.

Partly through his tour his CO changed and it was decreed that it would be US issued weapons only. Shortly after he said that an ammended order came down saying that without specific Authorizaton, it was US weapons only. he was issued a M9 and kit. (i sent him a Sparks IWB for the 17 which he continued to wear under his scrubs.)

As for ammo, he said they had literally a city block sized warehouse of captured arms and ammo. He said the ING and the IDF were going thru scads of AK rounds in training and not even making a dent on what they had. As far as captured ammo, unless it was in a battle pack, it was destroyed as much of it was tinkered with.

He said he saw no US personnel carrying .45 1911's at all except for certain navy personel. He did find several that were captures, including one minty rem rand 1911a1. He was surprised by the variety of AK variants that they would capture, thinking that most of these would have been military liberation, but there were polish, bulg, yugo, russian, chinese, and some unknowns. there were also a lot of HK and FN FAL's captured. These were not given out to the indiginous forces.

One thing he did confirm was soldier purchased sights. Lots of EO techs and ACOGS. Lots of soldier purchased web gear, hydration pacs, etc.
This is his second trip over there, he is a trauma surgeon/ anesthesiologist dual board certified MD.

 

[MAUSER88]

Interesting article. Thanks.

 

[fluffygrrl]

if you properly aim, you can kill someone with a .22 caliber. 9 mm is a lethal weapon. if you put plenty of useless 9 mm holes in anyone, it means you need more shooting practice, not a bigger gun. trying to improve your aim by increasing caliber is akin to trying to improve plane landing safety by adding more engines.

and even if you were in a baricaded room, you wouldn´t have the luxury of someone always coming in the same exact place. you will have to aim. to kill them you will have to aim good.

now i understand all you boys are real men and all, shoting billions of shots with no sore wrists and such, but do this simple experiment. see what your letal shot ratio is on a fresh clip against moving or popping targets, go fire 50 or so .45 shots and come back.

so, you say, it drops 10%. what does that matter ? if you were in hospital preparing for surgery and your surgeon came to you and said, well, your procedure normally has a 99.5% survival rate, but i spent all last night drinking with the boys, so it´s probably going to be in the high 80´s for you, what would you do ?

note the number of that lawyer down, and see if he´s willing to represent you against yourself sometime.

 

[joab]

now i understand all you boys are real men and all, shooting billions of shots with no sore wrists and such, but do this simple experiment. see what your letal shot ratio is on a fresh clip against moving or popping targets, go fire 50 or so .45 shots and come back.

That statement assumes that none of us have done this, or are you just projecting your own experience on us boys.
And again you are waffling. Your original premise was that nobody but the man of steel could shoot more than 6 to 9 large bore rounds, which simply has no basis in reality.
Your lack of experience is showing

it means you need more shooting practice, not a bigger gun

How much training can you get at 6 to 9 shots per session

 

[fluffygrrl]

thank you for the free personal assesment.

my original statement was that simply increasing the caliber is not necessarily a wise measure, given that it comes with a drop in accuracy, especially over longer shooting sessions. if you want to flame, feel free to, but pick someone else. if you want to say that increasing caliber does not decrease accuracy, feel free to, but i´d like to see some data.

the main point to be remembered here is that while gun afficionados mostly have their guns because they like them, military people mostly have them because they need them. projecting gun afficionado fantasies on the military profession is ... well... i´m sure you can figure it out.

 

[joab]

projecting gun afficionado fantasies on the military profession is ... well... i´m sure you can figure it out.

Making assessments of someone's professional and/or military experience based solely on the fact that they called you out on a faulty theory and for further changing that theory when you are unable to back it up is ,well, you know..

Your first statement (the one I repeatedly refer to)

any human being has stiff wrists after maybe 6 or 9 shots.you may think you personally are made of steel, but you are not, your hand will go stiff, you won´t be able to aim and then you die.

Please explain to me what difference it makes what kind of targets you are sooting at.
Recoil is recoil whether you are shooting into the air or at peanuts on strings. or running Hogans Alley.

Your assertion that 6 to 9 rounds will impact a shooter's wrist to the point of degraded accuracy on a human size target at barricaded room distances is the issue that I addressed. It shows a level of inexperience with large bore guns

And of course anybody that disagrees with you is a wannabe with testosterone issues

Just because you can't do it doesn't mean others can't

 

[Kodiaz]

6 to 9 rounds from a .45 thats it. I shoot 200 rounds thru mine (Kimber TLE 2 in stainless) every weekend. All my shots are good but I don't shoot at popup targets(oh I'd probably go every day then).

 

[joab]

6 to 9 rounds from a .45 thats it. I shoot 200 rounds thru mine (Kimber TLE 2 in stainless) every weekend.

Doesn't count if you're only an aficionado

 

[ajax]

Yea fluff not to bash or anything personal but you dont know what your talking about. Your in over your head.

 

[LawDog]

fluffygrrl,

I joined the U.S. Army in 1985. At the time, my unit was still issuing the M1911A1 pistol. Qualification on this pistol was done by shooting 100 rounds through it for 're-familiarization', and then firing the fifty round qualification course.

Considerably more than 6-9 rounds. Note, do, that we fired the 50 rounds to qualify only after we fired the first 100 rounds. Not only did I see no loss in accuracy with the last fifty rounds, but I usually saw a great increase in accuracy with them.

In addition, I took an Advanced Handgun course with a Colt Lightweight Commander some years back. Druing this four-day course, I fired somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 to 1,200 rounds of .45 ACP ammunition out of a pistol that is lighter (greater recoil) than the standard M1911A1 .45 ACP. I fired the .45 two-handed, weak side hand only, with one hand from behind a ballistic shield, and every other possible combination of handedness.

There was no appreciable degradation in accuracy from Day 1 through the last day.

LawDog

 

[hso]

the problem with bigger is better comes from your own wrist....any human being has stiff wrists after maybe 6 or 9 shots. you may think you personally are made of steel, but you are not, your hand will go stiff, you won´t be able to aim and then you die..

That just doesn't track with personal experience.

My wife is 5'4" and shoots a .45. She does this infrequently. After 100 rounds she does not have a stiff wrist and she doesn't have any problem aiming.

Tamara is 5'12" and shoots a .45. She does this frequently. After 100 rounds she does not have a stiff wrist and she doesn't have any problem aiming.

I'm a portly 5'8" with spindley chicken wing wrists and I shoot a .45. I do this frequently. After 100 rounds I do not have a stiff wrist and don't have any more problem aiming than I did with the first round.

The handgun carry certification in TN requires applicants to shoot well in excess of 6 to 9 shots (more like 20+) and requires them to aim and hit the target. Many women shoot these 20+ rounds and aim and hit the target. Some of them even shoot the course with .357s and .45s. They do not fail to hit the targe after 6 to 9 shots.

Anyone that has the problem you describe should consult a physician.

 

[1911 guy]

Ajax's post is good.

Short and to the point. Fluffygirl is in over her head. Actually, I hope she gets some training and learns to shoot well before she gives it up as an unattainable skill.

 

[PigPen]

if you properly aim, you can kill someone with a .22 caliber. 9 mm is a lethal weapon. if you put ....................................now i understand all you boys are real men and all, shoting billions of shots with no sore wrists and such, but do this simple experiment. see what your letal shot ratio is on a fresh clip against moving or popping targets, go fire 50 or so .45 shots and come back. ..................

Somehow, I think this thread misses the point. sorry !! When shooting someone, you are unlikely to fire 50 rounds before taking one shot to try and hit them. Given, firing round 51 is probably less accurate than round number one. But when trying to hit someone, I will not be firing 50 rounds first!

Also adrenaline will help when it's for all the marbles!

I hope that this is not taken as just wanting to argue. I understand that the situation might vary in Iraq right now. But I am unlikely to be in Iraq right now unless they have started drafting again and people in their 60's at that.

PigPen

 

[wingnutx]

Some of us picked up AKs:

but we didn't get to keep them.

Yes, that is gold

 

[wingnutx]

My friend's Marine unit told them they would not be searched for backup pistols on the way over, but they would on the way back, nudge nudge hint hint.