What to check when buying milsurp rifles?

[Joe Link]

For some reason, I feel like buying a gun today. I figure it's probably about time to start my milsurp collection, so I think I'll head to GI Joes & Big 5 to see what they have in stock. I know Big 5 is advertising M44's for $99, so that seems like a good bet.

The thing is, I know nothing about inspecting these old rifles for condition and/or wear. What should I look for? I'll probably end up buying whatever I can get for around $100, maybe two or three rifles though none of the same. Any suggestions as to what else I can expect to find besides the M44's?

 

[Slamfire]

1) Matching serial numbers on bolt body and receiver.

2) Nice shiney barrel. Strong rifling, no pitting.

3) Nice crown on barrel

4) lots of finish on rifle.

5) No missing or broken parts.

After that comes things like verify trigger works, safety works, sight works. The more matching serial numbers on all metal parts is good.

There are probably more that I can't think of right now.

 

[SGW42]

Most Mosins sold like that come with all the goodies (ammo pouch, oiler, bolt tool, cleaning kit, sometimes a bag for it all, bayonets for 91/30s), make sure it comes with those.

Do a little research on whatever rifle you're picking up so you know what's what. If you have a pile of them to dig through maybe you'll find something a little more unique.

 

[lionking]

here is a topic near and dear to me lol......


everything said above plus I'll add.


Depends on the model in question.Import stamps can detract from collectability yet some are rarer that it doesn't really matter.


Cleaning rods,sling swivels ect.! items that is needed to complete a rifle yet many try to sell one without one and don't discount the price accordingly.At a show today I saw a couple rifles without them that sometimes we overlook being so involved at other things about the rifle.Of course if it is such a nice rifle you may decide to get accessories seperately.


When it come to Garands and carbines it really gets complicated unless you are dealing with somebody you know or who will provide proof of coming from the CMP.At shows I don't trust hardly anybody who sells them unless the price accordingly but usually they don't.


Mausers and other bolt actions.Maker and condition are important.I just picked up a nice VZ24 in 7X57.Bore is very good/excellent.He had 2,both had similar bores but wood was beat up more on one.Mine had a butt stock pitted but better wood and with cleaning rod.It has a small import mark but considering nice VZ24 is kinda hard to find plus in 7mm it made up for it.


Just learn about the rifle you are thinking about and check auction sites to get a price idea.And auction sites,if a seller posts one small photo or fuzzy specially for something rare or pricey I am suspicious of that.Ask questions and ask for photos.I got a M1917 that by my fault I didn't see photos of the full rifles and when I got it the handguard was chewed up and the barrel counterbored,I was a bit peeved at myself but luckily after shooting it ,it was a decent rifle.

If any seller is selling something that is from the CMP and they can't prove it I don't believe them.I have seen a couple Garands listed as collectors grade and they did look good but no documents.

oh and one more thing to look for in milsurps...........a deep wallet because it is addictive and impulsed based lol!

 

[hangtime]

well, obviously the first thing you have to check for ...

is if it fires .303 British. If so you are more than halfway to a satisfying experience with your Milsurp ordnance.

 

[kurts_armory]

j&g sales has really good deals on mosins. i bought a 91/30 from there, it was brand new, never had a round down the pipe, and all matching numbers. i did however refinish the stock to origional military specs, and it looks great!

some great milsurp rifles:
mosin nagant m91/30 (finnish, russian...)7.62x54r
mauser k98k very nice, 8mm
enfields
garands
m1 carbines
turkish mausers
here is a great site with info on a huge selection of milsurp rifles
http://www.surplusrifle.com/russianmosin189130/index.asp
here are some pictures of my nagant 91/30, izhevsk

 

[Zedo]

Check to see of the barrel is counterbored!

Counterbore on the muzzle end is a means to "re-issue" a worn out rifle which has a worn muzzle from using a cleaning rod down the muzzle end. Basically they overbore the muzzle with a drill -- down a few inches into the barrel.

Big 5, if you're diplomatic, will allow you to go through their stock and "cherry pick" guns. I take a cleaning rod and patches to ANY shop where I'm looking for used guns. Also, I take a bore light.

Learn to distinguish between a "bright bore" and a "dark bore." They all have rifling, and it's useful to learn how to spot wear in a bore.

Matching numbers -- Mil-Surp rifles often where cleaned in the field with each soldier tossing the bolt into a common barrel of solvent. Bolts were replaced in the rifles at random with no attempt to "match numbers."

Matching bolt numbers with the receiver means that the gun was probably not issued and is "new" -- That's a nice feature. They may be beat up and dinged from storage on pallets, but they're not worn out.

If you're at all interested in "collecting" you should learn arsenal marks and production marks. That's the real attraction in mil-surp guns. Figure out what model you're interested in and then Google to find a site which provides marking info.

For mil-surp stuff, my personal favorites are the 8mm Mausers. Lots of them available, nice designs, classic bolt actions which are still used for custom rifles, and the 8mm round is impressive -- slightly larger than 30-06 Spfd.

Another nice Mil Surp is the CZ-52 pistol. Ugly as a mud fence, but an interesting roller lockup action as first used in German machine guns. Bottleneck 7.62 X 25 mm cal is really "zippy" too.

 

[Zedo]

double dipper -- why no "delete" function?

 

[AnaxImperator]

Pay special attention to the condition of the muzzle. Mosin Nagants are my special poison, and I've ran into them with nearly pristine bores and all matching (not force-matched) components, yet their accuracy was garbage due to a munged crown.
A lot of Mosins have had their muzzle's counterbored. Some collectors dislike this, but if you're going to own a shooter, having a counterbored rifle isn't a bad thing.

As available excellent quality Mosin Nagants dwindle, having one that's CB'd but with matching parts, furniture in near-perfect shape (even if an rearsenal job), and a shiny & sharp bore won't subtract as much from it's collector value.

Also with MNs, many have been rearsenaled (refurbished) as part of Soviet make-work programs. These rifles often have components which are force-matched, with the original serial-#'s lined-through & matching #'s electro-pencilled or stamped on. Most often these force-matched bits are buttplates and magazine/trigger assemblies, but I have seen some with force-matched bolts. While that may be an issue with Mausers or Lee-Enfields, Mosin Nagants seem to be very tolerant of miss-matched bolts. I've not yet heard of a single MN with a headspacing so bad from a non-matching bolt, that it caused the rifle to be unsafe.

Check out 7.62x54R.net for all the information you could ever hope for on Mosin Nagants.

I like them for collecting because there are just so many variations to look for, and some are very attractive as collection centerpieces (the tiger-stripe stocked MNs are one). M91/30s can be had as Kurts Armory found his, and they make fun & accurate shooters. Finnish Mosin Nagants are expecially desirable, and are known as being the most accurate of all MNs. I like my M91/30, which was also in un-issued condition, but my M38 carbine is what I grab for most often when heading out camping or hunting boar.

 

[dmftoy1]

I'd plan on checking the headspace on any mil-surp you buy as well. A no-go gauge will run you about $18 and it's well worth the piece of mind. (You also get to learn to tear down your Mosin's bolt as an added bonus!!)

Have a good one,
Dave