What's the best base 1911 to customize?

[dang]

To build a gun or buy a "loaded" custom ? Can it be done for $1000 ?

 

[CWL]

I don't think that your header and posting mean the same thing.

Can you buy a good M1911 for $1000 -definitely yes.
Can you build a M1911 yourself for $1000 -yes, but you need to know what you're doing or you can destroy the inner workings, slide, and frame.
Can you pay a good gunsmith to fine-tune (reliability package) an existing M1911 for less than $1000 -yes.
Can you pay a good gunsmith to build you a custom gun for $1000 -no.

 

[dang]

Gotcha. They are two different questions. How bout this, if you were going to buy a basic 45, (i.e. Rock Island, Springfield, Taurus etc.) which would be your choice to use as a starter for a long term upgrade project?

 

[AndyC]

Springfield, then RI

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Originally posted by dang:
... if you were going to buy a basic 45, (i.e. Rock Island, Springfield, Taurus etc.) which would be your choice to use as a starter for a long term upgrade project?

Of those? The Springfield. A gunsmith will be more willing to work on it because it is closest to the original design specs, is made from forgings (the Taurus might be, but the RIA is not) and is more proven, having been around much longer. Also consider a gently used, older "no-frills" Colt. I would recommend some trigger time with the gun before handing it off to the smith. This way, if it has any basic reliability problems the smith will know ahead of time to address them.

As for your price target, a grand in addition to the cost of the gun should be doable, depending on what you want.

Personally I would not go this route, preferring a gun that already has the features I want, but it's your call.

 

[steveracer]

Norinco.

This is the only one available at a low price point that is also completely forged and totally compatible with GI parts.
Steve.
(If you can get a Sistema, get one, they are in the same category in my opinion as the Nork.)

 

[Technosavant]

The easiest way to do it:
1) Figure out what you want on it. Do this FIRST.
2) Look and see what a factory gun with those features would cost. It may have all you want and more or it might even miss an item or two.
3) Price out a low end gun (personally, I'd start with a Springfield GI or Milspec) and then the extra work you want done (SA's Custom Shop posts their price list online).

Usually, it will be cheaper to buy a factory gun with the features you want than it will be to buy a lower end gun and have it tweaked.

 

[schmeky]

What steveracer said.

I have Colt, Kimber, and Norinco 1911's. You can find Norinco's on Gunbroker for around $350.00, plus shipping and FFL fees.

I recently did my own trigger job on my Norinco and sent it off to Ford's Guns for a "custom" re-blue; I will post pics when I get it back. I only changed the main spring housing, did the trigger work, and have a set of Crimson Trace laser grips on order.

Norinco's are made of 5100 series forged carbon steel, quite a bit harder than everyone else's 4000 series steel. There are no MIM parts (which I personally don't have an issue with), the barrel is hard chromed from the factory, and the Norinco is a 1911 copy, meaning you can easily modify it. The value of Norinco's has increased in the last year or so.

Also, something never mentioned about the Norinco I have personally discovered is the blue finish is very durable. Lastly, all reputable custom 1911builders will use the Norinco as a base for custom work.

Whatever you get, shoot it quite a bit before you modify it, you might be surprised how good the original John Browning design is.

 

[Steve C]

Norinco's have a low enough price and are of good quality to make customizing an economic project even if you have the work done by a gunsmith. Things that should be done to the Norinco is replace the barrel (which is not so good) and all the springs. On my Norinco I had a gunsmith swap the barrel out for a Springfield take out, trigger job to 4#'s, replace all the springs and install a bever tail grip safety and STI hammer. Total cost for the gunsmithing was $240 and the pistol cost $275 so my total cost was $545 with a set of new grip panels. It turned into a real tack driver.

 

[steveracer]

I had my smith do a really nice blue on mine...

and the rest I did myself. (Not much. Just King's front sight and a Yost Retro rear, springs, and some liberal polishing.)
I have many tens of thousands of rounds through mine, and it runs perfectly.
I have a similar build in progress on a Sistema, although it will get Melonite and night sights.
I will have less than $1200 in both pistols combined, and would trust my life with them over all other autoloaders in my possession.

 

[10-Ring]

I would look at Colt or SA as fantastic bases for a project.

 

[chongfa]

For a base gun, I would say Colt, Springfield, or Norinco.

 

[XavierBreath]

if you were going to buy a basic 45, (i.e. Rock Island, Springfield, Taurus etc.) which would be your choice to use as a starter for a long term upgrade project?

Colt. Preferrably a used Colt, so the price getting in will be lower. Colts tend to hold value through customization. Other pistols tend to lose value as a result, unless a big name gunsmith does the work.

Norincos will also hold value after customization.

 

[BAT1]

Custom base

SA GI or Milspec. Isn't the RIA a cast frame?

 

[Tom Fury]

Colt 1991A1 if you can find it; Unlovely used Colt if you can't as most shops can fix ugly but it costs money. SA Mil-Spec or GI second: be aware that SA grip tangs are cut differently than Colt and require use of Smith And Alexander beavertail to replace grip safety or must be rewelded and recut to use aftermarket grip safeties most likely made for Colt pattern, or go back to SA custom shop for their proprietary installation.
Hard to beat SA loaded deal. I don't like Colt factory beavertail at all. (Ed Brown gets my nod).
Cheers, TF

 

[Tom Fury]

Just noted your price ceiling (1K) it all depends on how much you want done; Conservative custom (trigger job, beavertail, new sights,) will be hard to bring in under 1K, making loaded a better deal for around 7-8. Any refinishing will almost certainly push you over the edge, new barrel and fit will certainly do so. Might do better to go loaded and spend rest of your thousand for a mod you really want or to have something tweaked to "just a little better" status. (Or outrageous grips!) Go to Novaksights and look at "package" deals; I think EGW does them too. Compare prices with SA custom shop. Remember shipping and Turn Around time.
Cheers, TF

 

[45auto]

The vast majority of "upgrade" base models I "see" are Colt or Springfield.

 

[sturmgewehr]

I would say Springfield is the best route.

 

[Ala Dan]

Springfield Armory G.I. model, or a Norinco; as I have seen both guns
turn out too be excellent shooter's after the rebuild~!

 

[Alphazulu6]

$ave your money up and just buy a nice Kimber complete. 1911 projects are like 350 engine "hot-rod-tune-ups"... they often cost more and are most often never fully completed without some major funding for outside help because lack of knowledge, tools, time or both.

If you want to save money in the end, buy a good used one that someone shot maybe a box or so through and was tired of a safe queen (plenty of them out there in the higher end 1911s).

Complete and under $1000 NIB.

Complete and under $1000 NIB.


Complete and under $1000 NIB

Good Luck.

 

[[email protected]]

Norinco Model 1911A1 - Conceal Carry

Are Norincos safe to carry in the locked and loaded postion? Do they have firing pin block safety?

If not can they be modified to add one?

 

[AndyC]

If you mean cocked and locked - yes, assuming you're competent.

Second and third questions - no and no (unless you want to pay a 'smith a ton of money to add one).

I'll add my vote to Norinco - best 1911 I ever owned, and I bought one to customise because I'd read that Bill Wilson said that their steel was better than Colt's (only reason I didn't say Norinco earlier was that I had heard they were unavailable in this country).

The question often comes up as to their quality, because they're made in China, so here's something I found on the 1911forum.com site here:

There is nothing wrong with Norinco 1911's you can be sure of that. Here is a copy of a post from a friend of mine who is an engineer in Ottawa that will give you some idea of the quality of the steel in Norincos.

"Allright, well let me first start by explaining a few things about steel in general, including Ordnance grades of steel. Hardness does not necessarily equate to brittleness, that is a function of heat treating and alloy. Even softer steels can crack and be brittle, it's a matter of how the internal stresses are relieved, or not, by annealing and hardening processes, as well as upon carbon on other constituent elements found in the steel.

Also should mention, I'm comparing apples to apples, so only the CroMo Colt is being compared to the CroMo Norinco here. The stainless guns have their own quirks (like spalling problems, corrosion resistance benefits, etc.)

In layman's terms, the more important characteristics to crafting firearms is the toughness of the steel and modulous of elasticity of the steel. You want steel that is ductile enough to flex at the microscopic level and return to its original shape but hard enough to have good wear resistance and, in higher end guns, be able to take and keep the desired finish without dinging up too easily.

Now if we want to talk about relative hardness of steels, Norincos are made from a different steel formulation than Colts are. Comparing Rockwell hardnesses really won't tell you much, but as a general observation, on average the Norincos are at least 30% harder on the surface than most other 1911's, including the Colt. This does not mean they are more brittle - it means that the alloy used to Make the Norincos (5100 tool steel*) results in a much harder surface when heat treated than does the Colt alloy (4140 Ordnance grade tool steel*).

*Although the exact alloy formulations are "industrial secrets", destructive testing done in the USA by the DCM (circa 1997) determined that Colt uses 4140 and the Chinese formulation used in 1911's and M14S receivers is an exact match to AISI 5100 series steel.

Perhaps this is the time to mention something else about Colts. Colt does not use the same alloy today it used in WW2 and earlier. In WW1, the guns were not even given what we think of today as "heat treating". Those older guns were only spot-treated at high stress areas and today have a rather high incidence of slide cracking using full factory loads due to a number of factors, including metal fatigue, crack propagation, creep, etc. coupled with the fact that vast portions of the slide and frame have no treatment at all. That being said, the steel is very ductile and in the event of failure, it should just bend and crack - not fracture like a grenade. A good thing, but at the same time - these babies should be collected and admired more than turned into a range marathon pistol!

I could get further into heat treating, including annealing, case hardening, gas carburizing, cyanide dips, etc. and the resulting pearlitic and/or martensitic grain structures, but frankly, unless you work in a foundry or have a mechanical engineering degree and understanding of materials science, it would be way too far over everyone's head so I'll try to keep this explanation understandable for the average fellow

Now for a short note on Chinese steel "quality". The Chinese are as advanced as we are in Steel production. Is Chicom steel of poorer quality on average on a gross domestic production basis? Yes, absolutely. This is because the majority of China's manufacturing is devoted to the Wal-Marts of the world at a very low price point, so cheaper steels are generally produced and used for those products. The steel used in their weapons, however, is every bit as up to snuff as North American steel is.

So now we get into the 5100 alloy Norinco 1911 in particular. 5100 is an EXCELLENT receiver material. It hardens very well on the surface but maintains an adequately ductile core. This gives great wear resistance and great resistance to plastic deformation (deformation that causes the parts to permanently deform or warp). The one achilles heel to 5100 series alloys is that they are notoriously hard to machine. Norinco, I suspect, machines their parts with carbide cutters prior to heat treating. On a finished gun the only way you're going to cut it with HSS mill bits is if you spot-anneal the steel with a torch first. Most smiths have to buy carbide mill bits to work the steel, and even then there's a very high tool wear rate. This is probably why so few smiths will do Novak cuts to a Norinco slide - they probably only have HSS tooling!

5100 alloy is, most probably, the alloy most manufacturers WOULD chose to build receivers if tool bits were cheap and labor costs were low. It really does have better end-product properties than 4140 steel does, and it's also easier to smelt at the steel mill and forges beautifully. Virtually all Cro-Mo guns made in the west that aren't cast, however, are made of 4140 or other 4100 series alloys. 4140 is an entirely adequate steel for use in guns, it also wears tools at a much slower rate and can still be machined easily after hardening. The Chinese are fortunate in that they make many of the tool steel bits on the market (cheap supply) and lobor costs are very low. This makes 5100 steel actually cheaper for them to use b/c of the lower costs associated with making the steel stock.

All this to say, you can complain about the design, fit, finish, and economics of a Norinco 1911. But frankly, trashing the steel is a bigotted and unfounded arguement based on ignorance and reliance on the Go-USA writings of most internet experts "

I hope this gives you a better perspective of the Norinco 1911.

Take Care

 

[res1b3uq]

1000 Dollars?

I have seen Gold Cup Colts advertised for less than that in new condition. I just bought an as new one for a lot less. IME unless you want a bunch of bells and whistles, these are pretty well set up from the factory, and I feel they will hold, or increase in value as time goes on. I also have a goverment that has had more add-on's than I gave for the Gold Cup, and they are about equal in accuracy. (but the Gold Cup is prettier, and has a better trigger)

 

[daysleeprx]

Both of my 1911s are customized Norks...they also happen to be my two favorite guns. Go fig.

 

[dang]

thanks

I apreciate all the input and advice. I will definately look into the Norinco. I forgot to mention the standard that my custom will be judged by will be my wifes Kimber pro-carry series 1. Thanks again. I love this site!!!