What's with the Angry?

[Nushif]

So, just recently I was reading a thread and instead of hi-jacking it ... I guess I'll make a new one.

In it someone said that one would receive a nice and warm welcome in a gun shop, which kind of is our first line of entry as a community, unless very specifically one "giggled at AR16s and said they saw that gun in a video-game."

Now, I'm wondering why exactly there's this instant red-flag-make-me-angry reaction when we see this. Granted I cringe a bit, too, but mainly because I know what will happen next.

I just fail to see the point when you can walk around a big gun show and find three "this gun killed ten NAZIs" signs ... where's the difference?!
Some young kid walks into a gun store and potentially can become a new gun owner and avid shooter when the friendly guy behind the counter hands them an M16 (screw you, I *have* shot M16s before) and says "Check this out, a lot different in real life, huh?"
I can guarantee you though, the kid isn't gonna become a new gun owner and aficionado if he gets a reply like "We don't deal with that here. Please leave." And then the employee promptly turns around and talks to his buddy about the new russian shotguns even SpecialOps uses.

What's so inherently wrong with wanting guns that one has seen before and doing two things:
a) Investigating the realities of them, which is what said young kid is doing and
b) Having some fun with said guns.

Some very serious shooters, at the local competitions still brag about how they dinged their finger when trying to dual wield Desert Eagles. How is that so different from saying "I've always wanted to shoot a .50 cal since playing <some military shooter>." and "Is that the gun you get in <some military shooter>?"

Can someone explain to me this random phenomenon?

 

[grubbylabs]

People forget that they were once new as well. And those that were born into it must be better than those who had to learn on their own.

 

[Live2offroad]

It's a case of the "inside vs. outside" mentality.. Those that are "in the club" need to feel special, so they make those on the outside feel stupid. This is narrow minded of course, but it's just a part of human nature. Everyone, even rugged individualist, seek to be in the "in group"..

 

[Nushif]

That would explain this if *all* new shooters receive this kind of treatment.

But it seems a very specific focus on the videogame issue. I don't see someone who walks into a store asking to see a "big bore gun" because they read a safari book getting the same treatment.

 

[Sam1911]

I wrote something to this effect in a recent thread on the grumpy old fellows you see at some gun show tables, and it applies in gun shops as well:

Now, if the appliance store treated their refrigerators and high-end ranges that way, we'd all applaud as they went right out of business. But gun shops have a certain odd hold on us. We almost expect a real gun dealer to be a crusty old jerk who is extremely annoyed to be bothered with our inquiries. Pat McManus' character Henry P. Grogan fondly immortalizes the type. Becoming a customer -- bearding the lion in its den, so to speak -- is (or was) a distinct rite of passage for most of us.

The odd thing is that gun sales are through the roof, even in a bad economy. Someone is selling them. Maybe hundreds of thousands of new buyers are learning to appreciate the hazing ritual of buying a gun from the traditional old coot. Or, perhaps, there's a certain class of dealer that is learning to say, "yes ma'am, no sir, and I'll be VERY glad to help with that!"

As W.C. Fields once said, "Ahhh, the good old days. I hope they never come again."

To add a bit to that, the sweaty-handed junior who went weak at the knees to hold a Model 70 just like his hero Jack O'Conner uses, back in 1950, or to see a REAL pair of Colt SAA's just like Tom Mix used to shoot the guns out of the hands of the men in black hats -- is now the pudgy video-game geek who's dangerously close to spilling his Dr. Pepper on that FN SCAR-17 ... just like his digital hero uses to defeat the terrorists in the game of the moment. Some things really don't change.

For whatever reason panting, star-struck over-enthusiasm in any discipline (especially those involving heavy risks or responsibilities) tends to annoy the more savvy and experienced members of whatever community. Old hands look down on newbies throughout the world for legitimate reasons (safety concerns, especially) and unfortunate ones (elitism, self-promotion). The really noteworthy old hands -- those who are really memorable and who make a difference for their sport, profession, or pastime -- are those who stifle their impatience and plant a little of themselves in the next generation as a seed to help them grow in the right direction. Like all good people, those folks are memorable for being so rare.

 

[Cosmoline]

Nothing wrong with getting inspiration from entertainment. I recently got a crowbar just like Gordon Freeman uses.

 

[Sam1911]

I recently got a crowbar just like Gordon Freeman uses.

Now that's awesome.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Gee, I got me a Mattel Thunderburp because Peter Graves used a Thompson to battle nuclear mutant grasshoppers in "The Beginning of the End" (1957). It might be easy to dump on videogamers (especially when they edit gun articles on Wikipedia) but I remember being a nine year old movie and gun buff. Luckily I was tolerated by my elders back in the day, and hope I will remember that encountering a noobie.

 

[northark147]

As A kid I was taught, or at least allowed access to firearms to teach myself to be a very proficient marksman. I was even taught how to reload. However past knowing the difference between a shotgun, pistol, rifle, etc etc, I still never was taught squat about many details. Even cleaning as far as I knew was take your Hoppes universal kit, cram some patches and maybe that brushy thingy down the bore, and wipe the living bejesus out of the thing with rem oil. At least that's how I cleaned my 22, my step dad took care of everything else, probably to include re cleaning my 22 correctly. Then there was the divorce so I didnt see much more than a 22 for the three years except when I'd go borrow a rifle for deer hunting from my dad during the season. Then at 17 I joined the service and still didn't learn much of anything for a long time. I had my first ex wife who was pretty close to anti gun, then finally my inner beast got out of its shell. It took me a long time before I was comfortable even going in a gun shop for fear I'd say or ask something stupid. I went to ones out of town in places I didn't figure I'd ever go again. I guess in some respects I was lucky and the ones I went too were friendly enough because I did ask dumb questions and say stupid things, and I learned. Now I am the local gun nut that even the Gun shops call for an opinion sometimes. I'm not sure it would've turned out as such had those gun shops in another town been rude and made a point of confirming to myself that I really was as stupid as I already felt.

 

[Cosmoline]

Now that's awesome

;-) It's for killing the anomalous material that builds up all around my driveway during the six month winter and laughs at shovels.

 

[tyeo098]

When I went to my first gun show, I was drooling more over the Mosin's than the AR15's (this is mostly because of my love affair with CoD World at War, Nagants were my favourite in the game) and I practically crapped myself when I learned the were only 100 bucks, 9ft bayonet and all.

And the guy I bought it from WAS an old coot, but I never led him on that I was buying it based on my interest in a vidja game.

 

[Remo223]

"Can someone explain to me this random phenomenon?"

Yeah I can. Its ignorance plain and simple. You know how those guys that don't know that much about cars are the most critical of women when a woman asks a "noob" question about a car?

Same thing with guns.

 

[RimfireChris]

It's a teachable moment, some make 'em, some break 'em.

 

[hermannr]

When I was 12 my dad asked me if I wanted a rifle for my birthday present....heck yes, well I was really disapointed when I found out it was a "boys" single shot .22. But you know, you have to start somewhere, and dad said when you show you can handle this rifle safely, and take care of it properly, well talk about that Marlin repeater you want.

Oh, BTW: you will like this .22, because you now have to earn money to purchase your own ammo and a repeater eats a lot more ammo than a ss.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I've seen this once at KTP. Two kids that were just fooling around because they were guns, taking pictures with Benelli M4s, pretend firing them and then after awhile of playing with the shotguns they went over to the pistols and of course asked to see some 10in Smith and Wesson that was a magnum of some sort (didn't ask, didn't care). Granted some people are uninformed and are interested in guns because of video games while others just want to fool around with guns in a gun shop.

In another thread, another Highroader helpped a misguided youth at KTP aswell who was originally looking for a "Zombie gun" and he took the advice wisely.

 

[FullEffect1911]

Becoming a shooting enthusiast isn't the easiest thing to do if you don't have someone with experience to show you the ropes.

Imagine how intimidating it would be to walk into a gun store or onto a public range with no practical knowledge of firearm safety and technique. Now couple that lack of knowledge with the drivel that video games and movies gives us and you have a lot of misguided and uninformed people who seem to be awkward at best and dangerous at worst.

It is now up to the firearms community to show those who are misguided/misinformed how to become safe and proficient. It is only after someone shows they have no interest in learning proper anything that they should be "shunned" if for no other reason then only those willing to be helped should have the time taken to be helped.

Perhaps it's a fear of helping a stranger, elitism or a jaded sense that the "youth" is beyond help that promotes that angry reaction. It is also perhaps that some people are just obnoxious (or at least come across as such) and tends to garner a negative reaction.

Since I have access to a shooting range on my parents land, I will go out of my way to try and help new shooters who are interested in learning. Hell, I even met my girlfriend this way. But I admit there are some people I would never invite to shoot with me because I felt they were not mature enough to take my advice or listen to safety or just didn't have the appropriate level of interest.

Everyone has to make a judgement call with their decisions and reactions.

It's actually a bit funny in a way because I would like to get into IDPA but I am concerned about that "angry" reaction to me being a noob in competition shooting. I am almost certain that everything I've heard about it is that if you are safe they will be welcoming, but seeing as I'm only in my late 20's I will probably be looked at as a "kid".

 

[8654Maine]

I think Sam & others have hit this.

It's like a doc or surgeon hearing the same questions over and over.

It's a rare bird who has the knowledge and the compassion to impart it.

I do remember I was a newb at one point. Heck, after all this time I still am a newb.

 

[Sam1911]

It's actually a bit funny in a way because I would like to get into IDPA but I am concerned about that "angry" reaction to me being a noob in competition shooting. I am almost certain that everything I've heard about it is that if you are safe they will be welcoming, but seeing as I'm only in my late 20's I will probably be looked at as a "kid".

I'd encourage you to jump right in despite those concerns, but if you can ever make it down to the center part of the state for a day trip some 1st Sunday of the month, I can promise you a warm reception at one of my matches. (And probably a chance to meet a handful of other High Roaders as well.)

 

[trav]

Brand new to the handgun school, and an overall noob to guns. I own a few, and have shot (mostly 22s and shotguns) and recently picked up a 686 S&W 4". When I went to my local gun shop (expressly went to this location because I want to support local efforts over chain stores) I asked a few questions about revolvers, pistols, brands, etc. The clerk couldnt have been more bothered to help me. It was like I was bothering him. I was already a bit uncomfortable (being a man, and having to ask another man for advice on the manly art of firearms) and made even more so by the less than helpful staff. I finally picked up my 686 last week at the shop, and it was one of the owners that checked me out. He was pretty polite, and helpful... however, his staff lost him a customer. I have every intention of purchasing more firearms over the next couple of years, and it will be a cold day in hell before I go back to that location. I loathe the box stores, but I will now be going to them, to spend my buck on fishing gear/guns/ammo/etc.

 

[harrygunner]

Sometimes entry points to guns are down right hostile.

I watched a black man be ignored waiting to buy ammo at a gun show. That seller would simply look past him as the man gestured for attention. Finally, the black guy got the attention of another person at that booth. That guy handed him a 500 round can of reloaded ammo and charged him the price for new. I saw looks passed between the two sales guys. Fortunately, the black guy noticed and demanded what he paid for.

 

[rodensouth]

This is one of the reasons those "Big Box Stores" stay in business and Gander can charge what they do. People will more likely try something, or part with their money if they can possibly skip the condescension.

I was once in a record store and asked a question receiving rolled eyes and a look to the other guy behind the counter. I said, "Get the manager boy". You should have seen his smirk change as I had the owner pull my account information, and informed him that total would never climb any higher due to that interaction.

As a business owner, I can tell you that I love feedback so that I can correct my problems. Unfortunately, in gun shops it's often the owner leading that culture of condescension.

 

[buck460XVR]

That would explain this if *all* new shooters receive this kind of treatment.

But it seems a very specific focus on the videogame issue. I don't see someone who walks into a store asking to see a "big bore gun" because they read a safari book getting the same treatment.

I think it boils down to those same folks haven't a clue about the complexity of the video games nowadays. They think of First Person shooter video games as the plastic rifle and the blurry graphics of the old "duck shoot" games that were once popular in bars. They don't realize that the high end games nowadays are so realistic they could be used for firearm training. Not only are the graphics realistic, but so are the guns and the way they shoot. Most games are also quite historically correct when it comes to the firearms of the era or theater of war the game is duplicating. Matter of fact, most gamers could tell you what guns were used by what military during what war, allies or foe, where-as most of these smart-aleck gun shop regulars MAY be able to tell you what America used in the last two wars.

I was lucky growing up. I was embraced when I was introduced to firearms. My mentors took my ignorance in stride and were patient when I got overwhelmed or awestruck. They informed me when I made mistakes and praised me when I did good. Ridicule was not in their MO. I was foolish and wide eyed then too, not so much different than new shooters today. I only hope that I pass on even a small part of what my mentors showed me.

 

[crm7290]

Harrygunner thats just plain racist of those people. Thats not ok anywhere. Its people like them who give gun owners a bad name. They truly are the redneck racist gun toting idiots that is the stereotype.

Reason I wanted a gun, besides that I shot them and got addicted was Call of Duty. Been playing that since the original Xbox. I'm not fooling around in gun stores, I would doubt if they even know I came in. I don't ask to look at things or ask questions because I know they will not give me the time of day. When I go in I know what I am talking about and what I want and its get in get out. Gun shop owners around here all about hunting which isn't my thing and the shop I go specializes in hunting.

 

[Ignition Override]

After my wife and I took an excellent guided tour of the "Band of Brothers' " fox holes (some were F Company fox holes) and other battle sites around Bastogne Belgium two years ago, this suddenly inspired me to own an M-1 Garand.
I had never used an M-1, but the guide's friendship with some of the veterans and exact, detailed descriptions of their experiences created a "spark".
On the other hand, if somebody else plays a video game and is motivated by that, why does it matter?

It's hard to imagine that people would sneer at a potential buyer (whether young or a 55 year old novice) who could have the cash or credit card to buy a gun, but if they do talk down to the novice from an "ivory tower", the patient buyer can find another seller for widely available guns, and should. These buyers might actually be willing to learn a bit, from a patient seller.

A guy about a year ago at a Memphis show with some Garands laid some vague and intentionally (insultingly) convoluted Garand 'bs' on me which, in contrast, made Bill Clinton's nebulous political comments appear to be as clear and objective as a military briefing.
Those types, who think that they are experts and so astute, don't realize that many of us won't even consider buying a rifle sling from them-never mind a gun.

As for the cruder or crustier types of people, no shop or gun show seller needs any wealth to have a bit of "class".
A lyric at the end of a Pink Floyd song: "Good manners don't cost nothing".

 

[Heretic]

I had a kid I know go on and on about how he could hit a target at 1000 yards. I was curious, so I invited him to go shooting. He couldn't hit beer cans at 50 yards. After hearing that my Win 70 was junk, he dropped the comment that it was easier on his game. He had never touched a gun in his life, but felt he was a sniper, and had nothing to learn. I feel video games ruin any chance of becoming proficent with a firearm the same way Qbasic ruined a generation of computer programers.